Philosophy Now Forum

phyllo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 2:39 pm Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

A sovereign country can make any alliances and join any organization that it wants.

It's not up to Putin/Russia to make those decisions for Ukraine or any other country.

This can be discussed at length after the ceasefire and the immediate end to the carnage.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 1:58 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 5:58 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 4:52 am A short primer on the history of the Ukraine issue, by a former Democrat star:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNC3N93YYNE

No formal agreement was ever made that NATO wouldn't be expanded East after the collapse of the USSR.

RFK says there was this mutual understanding. The memoranda issued between the parties say there was. https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book ... ders-early. Headline: "Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner" (Documents provided below.)

You say there wasn't. Or that it wasn't "formal" enough.

Seems pretty formal. The attempt was certainly made to convince the USSR that their security would not be eroded. Somebody was playing false, alright.

And Russia told the US that "There are no plans or intentions to attack Ukraine", but as far as I know that wasn't a formal agreement either.

The US/Western bloc and the Russians/SU have been lying to each other for over 40 years during the Cold war, deception is a basic part of warfare. It's even mildly funny imo that the loser later complains about a deception (intentional or unintentional at the time) that wasn't even part of a formal treaty.

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 3:58 pm The US/Western bloc and the Russians/SU have been lying to each other for over 40 years during the Cold war, deception is a basic part of warfare. It's even mildly funny imo that the loser later complains about a deception (intentional or unintentional at the time) that wasn't even part of a formal treaty.

Gorbachev was a reformist and tried to make peace with the West. It's a shame we seem to be back in a cold war with Russia again.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 4:44 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 3:58 pm The US/Western bloc and the Russians/SU have been lying to each other for over 40 years during the Cold war, deception is a basic part of warfare. It's even mildly funny imo that the loser later complains about a deception (intentional or unintentional at the time) that wasn't even part of a formal treaty.

Gorbachev was a reformist and tried to make peace with the West. It's a shame we seem to be back in a cold war with Russia again.

Imo the majority of the Russians with their too barbaric mentality weren't ready for Gorbachov, they still wouldn't be today. He was given no state funeral and Putin didn't attend it.

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 2:43 pm And Russia told the US that "There are no plans or intentions to attack Ukraine", but as far as I know that wasn't a formal agreement either.

Well, you poke the bear, you get bitten. And Biden sure poked the bear.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 8:01 pm Well, you poke the bear, you get bitten. And Biden sure poked the bear.

On the other hand, why isn't the Christian God poking Putin? Perhaps for the same reason he didn't poke Hitler? Or Stalin? Or Pol Pot?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:42 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:30 pm They could have surrendered on any day in the last three years.

Russia is too strong for Ukraine to handle alone. Should the West step in and tip the balance?

Why only the so-called "west"? Why not everyone else?

Should only 'some' only help one when they are being 'bullied'? Or, should every one help everyone else when they are being bullied?

Should 'bullies' and 'bullsm' even be allowed and be tolerated anymore, at all, in the days when this is being written?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:42 pm Then what happens?

People will be seen to be sticking up for standing behind those who are being threatened, bullied, and killed.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:42 pm World war III?

your votes in so-called "leaders" will choose 'that' for you.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:42 pm Does Russia convince China to ally with it? Maybe we need to be realistic.

Why were absolutely anybody you not being so-called 'realistic', from the beginning?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:42 pm Things can get much worse.

And/or, much better.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:42 pm I say make peace.

But, why 'make peaceful'. Why not 'just be always peaceful', from the beginning?

Once you also find out and uncover why you adult human beings stopped 'being always peaceful', from the outset, then you will know, for sure, what needs changing, to prevent 'being unpeaceful', again.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:42 pm Try to ensure Ukraine's safety as much as possible but make peace so that the world can go on.

Who, exactly, are you claiming, here, is 'being unpeaceful', here, and thus who should so-call 'make peace', here, exactly?

What I am also asking is, 'How does one who is being bullied or attacked, by another, so-call 'make peace', other than by just 'surrendering' and just 'handing over' absolutely every thing that the bully or attacker wants?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:42 pm I don't think flirting with WW3 is anything but the greatest mistake that human beings can possibly make.

Polluting the very world that human beings need in order to survive and keep living is also up there with the greatest mistakes and most stupidest of thing that they can do, and are actually doing when this is being written. But, like a frog being placed in cold water, which is heating up, compared to be placed in boiling water, human beings are slower to notice, REALIZE, and react. While some are just way to slow to even notice, and to react, at all.

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 9:01 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:42 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:30 pm They could have surrendered on any day in the last three years.

Russia is too strong for Ukraine to handle alone. Should the West step in and tip the balance? Then what happens? World war III? Does Russia convince China to ally with it? Maybe we need to be realistic. Things can get much worse.

I say make peace. Try to ensure Ukraine's safety as much as possible but make peace so that the world can go on. I don't think flirting with WW3 is anything but the greatest mistake that human beings can possibly make.

They use your fear of WW3 to manipulate you.

Very, very True.

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 9:01 pm They want you to surrender, to give away your morals, your humanity, your decency and to submit to their will.

Again, very, very True.

Imagine how much of one's own morals have had to be given away, to just follow "donal trump" in the TELLING of the people of "gazza" and of "ukraine" to just 'give up' because your 'homeland' has been 'bombed', and would 'now' be a horrible place to live?

Oh, and by the way, while you are 'moving out', sign over 'your homelands' TO 'us', so that 'we' can use 'your mineral deposits' and 'make your homes' 'our resorts', for 'our monetary wealths', of course.

Absolutely every thing, here, is BACKWARDS, and absolutely IRRATIONAL. Yet there are SOME people who are following, blindly, this INSANITY.

It is like 'these people' have devolved a few hundred years and believe that they can just go into other countries, and TELL :the people' who are actually living there to just 'move out', or we will make you move. The mindset, which existed only a couple of hundred years, prior to when this is being written, seems to have continued on INTO some, here. That is; the people and human beings in 'those countries' are not people, nor even 'human beings'.

But, instead of actually physically going 'there', to 'other's lands' and 'driving them from their lands', while killing and murdering some', along the way, 'this time' human beings and hoses are being BOMBED, with human beings being killed and murdered, FIRST, and then TOLD that they 'now' 'have to move on'. All under some sort absolute ABSURD attempt at A 'justification', that 'your place' is 'now' NOT LIVEABLE.

Please inform 'me' that there is just one other, here, who SEES the absolute Wrong, and 'power imbalance insanity', that has been occuring and taking place, here.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 9:41 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 9:01 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:42 pm

Russia is too strong for Ukraine to handle alone. Should the West step in and tip the balance? Then what happens? World war III? Does Russia convince China to ally with it? Maybe we need to be realistic. Things can get much worse.

I say make peace. Try to ensure Ukraine's safety as much as possible but make peace so that the world can go on. I don't think flirting with WW3 is anything but the greatest mistake that human beings can possibly make.

They use your fear of WW3 to manipulate you.

They want you to surrender, to give away your morals, your humanity, your decency and to submit to their will.

So I guess the game is, who wants to be the one responsible for tipping the balance in this conversation and take responsibility for the results.

Out of curiosity, when has there ever been 'balance', in this conversation, here?

And, 'what' actual conversation are you even referring to, exactly?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 9:41 pm I'm for making peace.

I am for NEVER even starting to be 'unpeaceful'.

But, like you "garry childress" who is EVER going to LISTEN TO 'you', or 'me', here?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 9:41 pm And if Trump has one thing right, then I think it is that we should be pursuing peace.

LOL
LOL
LOL

The LAST thing "donal trump" care about it is interested in, here, is 'peace', other than for "its" own 'self', and a very select few others, only.

"donald trump" just PRETENDS that it is 'pursuing peace' for you and others, is so that it can get you, and others, on its "side", only.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 9:41 pm If others don't want that right now, then fine. I'm a nobody. I don't know shit. Maybe we should keep at it. Take it away. Keep fighting. See where that gets us all.

Following and supporting those like "donald trump" and its "billionaire" friends is certainly not going to get 'you', and 'us', absolutely anywhere near where 'we' want to get, and be.

But, following and supporting those people' will certainly help them get exactly where they want to get, and be. That is; with more money, than you and others, and with more control, over you and others.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 10:15 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:33 pm

If that had been the truth, then why invite Zelensky into the White House at all? There was nothing to be gained.

To get some cheap mining contracts for Trump's billionaire buddies?

Well, let's see your evidence for that.

LOL

Again, 'we' another prime example of when people are absolutely BLIND and DEAF TO actual evidence, and even actual irrefutable proof, when they have and hold A BELIEF or even A PRESUMPTION.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:01 pm
We'll never know. Zelensky did not negotiate, or even show willingness to be grateful to the US for what it had already done. He was rude and attempted to lecture. Very, very foolish behaviour. A little humility would have left him a place at the table; now he's excluded himself.

It's the people of Ukraine who will suffer for his hubris.

Spoken like a true Trumper...an outstanding cult member of the tribe!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odi4OPyGokQ&t=62s

Any alliance with a war criminal, murderer and dictator is himself one assertively in agreement with its policies. Congrats for showing your true colors!

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 9:29 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:01 pm
We'll never know. Zelensky did not negotiate, or even show willingness to be grateful to the US for what it had already done. He was rude and attempted to lecture. Very, very foolish behaviour. A little humility would have left him a place at the table; now he's excluded himself.

It's the people of Ukraine who will suffer for his hubris.

Spoken like a true Trumper...an outstanding cult member of the tribe!

Can't be. I didn't even mention Trump. He's your obsession, not mine. I don't even live in his country.

No, I'm talking about Zelensky, and about what his incompetence and foolishness is going to result in...the continued killing of Ukrainians, whereas he could be working on a peace deal. But I suspect he doesn't want one: he's making too much money reselling American arms at 20% of their value, on the black market right now. He just wants that gravy train to keep rolling, so he has no interest in peace...and even less in democracy.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 9:41 pm

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 9:29 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:01 pm
We'll never know. Zelensky did not negotiate, or even show willingness to be grateful to the US for what it had already done. He was rude and attempted to lecture. Very, very foolish behaviour. A little humility would have left him a place at the table; now he's excluded himself.

It's the people of Ukraine who will suffer for his hubris.

Spoken like a true Trumper...an outstanding cult member of the tribe!

Can't be. I didn't even mention Trump. He's your obsession, not mine. I don't even live in his country.

No, I'm talking about Zelensky, and about what his incompetence and foolishness is going to result in...the continued killing of Ukrainians, whereas he could be working on a peace deal. But I suspect he doesn't want one: he's making too much money reselling American arms at 20% of their value, on the black market right now. He just wants that gravy train to keep rolling, so he has no interest in peace...and even less in democracy.

...and how do you know all that? What you're saying is that Putin and Trump are the real peacemakers, while Zelensky is just in it for the money! You're an outstanding Putin/Trump propagandist. So, again what's the source for your assertions?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 10:48 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 10:26 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 10:15 pm
Well, let's see your evidence for that.

You asked a question and I gave you my take on it.

Oh. So...no evidence, just an opinion?

The 'evidence, in case you missed it, is in the very words of "donal trump", itself, when it speaks of things like, 'ukraine would get "the right to fight on" in return for access to its minerals'.

"donald trump" does not actually want peace, in that or other regions, around the world because of the monetary profits that it can make by inventing, building, supplying, and selling weapons, to others.

Because "donald trump' is just so greedy and selfish it just does not want to help any one, for free nor for nothing. it wants to get as much as it can by the supplying of weapons to others.

Even the tactic of saying to the two "leaders" of "russia" and "ukraine" that they HATE each other, is just the exact same tactic that "lawyers" use to 'divorced couples' in order to keep them FIGHTING, and WARRING, with each other. In order to keep supplying more and more money to the "lawyers".

"donald trump" like these "lawyers" do not want to do anything for free, nor help in anyway for nothing. They all want to get as much money out 'the situation's, as they can.

Some people just want more fighting and more warring, in the world, because of 'the money' that they can make and obtain from it

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 10:48 pm

Zelenskyy certainly was not being invited to be an equal participant in the peace negotiations.

I'm not sure whether or not that's true. But if so, why should he be?

Obviously because it would best if the one being ATTACKED had some say in how to stop the ATTACKER.

Otherwise the "attacker" and another could just agree upon any old outcome, and then just FORCE the ATTACKED to just accept what has been agreed upon without the ATTACKED being involved.

Which is more or less EXACTLY what has been being played out, here.

He's no longer the elected representative of Ukraine: he shut down their elections. He's now an autocrat.
[/quote]

you speak as though this is the most evil or most wrong of things in Life. Yet, 'right before your eyes', the making of the biggest and worst "autocratic" family is unfolding, but which you are to blind, to see.

Also, and by the way, what do you think or believe the majority of people from "ukraine" want anyway?

1. To surrender all of "ukraine", and themselves", to "vladimir putin" and "russia"?

2. To surrender parts of "ukraine" to "russia", while surrendering 'mineral rights' to "united states of america"?

3. To keep fighting for what is 'rightly' theirs? Or,

4. Something else?