Philosophy Now Forum

Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 8:07 pm Gary Childress suggested common sense as a moral compass.

Are the Ten Commandments common sense?

No, a psychopath has different common sense.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 3:46 pm The "God's Chosen" trope and the "God gave Israel to the Jews" must be answered with either an absolute *yes* or a *no* -- there really is no in-between "sort of" or "in a way".

What you don't understand is simply basic logic. There's no alternative to "did" or "did not." It IS a "yes or no" question. There's literally no other way for it to be framed.

What's your third alternative? You'll find that none of them don't reduce to "yes" or "no," to "did" or "did not." You can dress those two polarities up a million ways, and they'll still end up being either yes or no, either did or did not. That's just logic.

Either God deeded the Land to Abraham, OR He did not. It's certainly not compelling of anything to say "Abraham imagined that the Land was his." That doesn't achieve either the goals of the Jewish claim, since one man's opinion is worth nothing, by way of settling that issue.

So I'm asking Janoah to take a stand on what he believes. We've been talking about the possibility of God intervening in natural laws; this tests Janoah's resolution on the point that that simply cannot be so.

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 4:20 pm I thought the UN gave Israel to the Jews, but whoever it was, I do know it wasn't theirs to give.

The UN was invented in 1945. Jews had lived in Israel, on and off, since at least 1200 BC. And we can tell because of the artifacts: whole cities, in fact, of Jewish people have inhabited the Holy Land since ancient times. So the UN could neither "give" nor "take" the Land, either way. Nor was the Balfour Declaration of 1917 anything more than a lame recognition of what already had been.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:03 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 4:20 pm I thought the UN gave Israel to the Jews, but whoever it was, I do know it wasn't theirs to give.

The UN was invented in 1945. Jews had lived in Israel, on and off, since at least 1200 BC. And we can tell because of the artifacts: whole cities, in fact, of Jewish people have inhabited the Holy Land since ancient times. So the UN could neither "give" nor "take" the Land, either way. Nor was the Balfour Declaration of 1917 anything more than a lame recognition of what already had been.

Forgive me if I don't accept your spin on the situation.

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:17 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:03 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 4:20 pm I thought the UN gave Israel to the Jews, but whoever it was, I do know it wasn't theirs to give.

The UN was invented in 1945. Jews had lived in Israel, on and off, since at least 1200 BC. And we can tell because of the artifacts: whole cities, in fact, of Jewish people have inhabited the Holy Land since ancient times. So the UN could neither "give" nor "take" the Land, either way. Nor was the Balfour Declaration of 1917 anything more than a lame recognition of what already had been.

Forgive me if I don't accept your spin on the situation.

No spin. Just a little history, all publicly available. Google it yourself, if you doubt.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:58 pm What's your third alternative?

Do you bother to carefully read what people write?

A priest class fabricated an entire range of stories including that of the granting Judea as well as that of “divine selection” and eventual Jewish rulership of the world. All of it is fabricated. When one accepts this, whole other vistas open up.

What was “said” to Abraham was reverse-engineered into the Story. There is a devilish genius in this because it involves a supreme use of manipulation. The Jewish people have been manipulated by a class that rules them. That is the origin of Jewish tragedy in history. As Heinrich Heine said: “Judaism is not a religion, it is a misfortune”

You know very well that if one pillar of belief falls, all pillars are in danger of collapse, so you uphold them all! Garden of Eden, Snakes, Exiles, Arks.

This is religious zealotry and fanaticism in action.

Janoah is rowing in a different, but related boat. His is post-Jewish belief. The “shadow” still falls on him but he can’t any longer perform the absolutist position. He struggles mightily however! How he lunges about for a coherent story-line!

You clearly spot him and as I say try to “out-Jew” him with your purer belief-position.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:44 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:58 pm What's your third alternative?

Do you bother to carefully read what people write?

Do you bother with logic? Whatever you say, it's going to reduce to "yes" or "no." It's inevitable. But let's see which it is.

A priest class fabricated ...

That's the answer. You think "no."

Boy, you sure squirt a lot of words to say nothing at all.

What I say is what you can’t and won’t hear. Yet what I say stands.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:52 pm What I say is what you can’t and won’t hear. Yet what I say stands.

If you stand on what you say, you're going to have to wipe your shoe.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:28 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:17 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:03 pm
The UN was invented in 1945. Jews had lived in Israel, on and off, since at least 1200 BC. And we can tell because of the artifacts: whole cities, in fact, of Jewish people have inhabited the Holy Land since ancient times. So the UN could neither "give" nor "take" the Land, either way. Nor was the Balfour Declaration of 1917 anything more than a lame recognition of what already had been.

Forgive me if I don't accept your spin on the situation.

No spin. Just a little history, all publicly available. Google it yourself, if you doubt.

I am not well enough informed to debate it with you, but I am well enough informed to know that modern Israel is founded on land that was stolen. It was a massive injustice. I don't give a toss about the Jews or the Palestinians, so I have no bias in that respect, and therefore have no reason to come down on one side or the other for any other reason than that of fairness. You, on the other hand, are bound by some stupid Bible prophecy, and have no choice in the matter, and most of us here know that.

I can help. Jews are deeply associated with those lands. Of that there is no doubt. But there was an exile in Roman times. True, some Jews remained, but the land was for centuries possessed by other peoples.

The exiled Jews always longed for return. But traditional Judaism saw the Exile as God’s command.

In the late 19th and early 20th century political Zionism developed as a solution to the many tragedies of the European situation.

There were smallish Jewish communities in Palestine at that time. But they did not have a Jewish state as their objective.

When the Zionists came in larger numbers they “took over the place” and used international connections to work their will.

They patterned their “return” on a biblical narrative and those who opposed them as their “eternal enemies” (Amalek, Haman).

Their conquest involved deep injustices. These have festered.

Did they have a “right” to take over the land again? Depends on who you ask and what narrative line they have invested in. God-believers see the recent “return” as a “sign”. It is God’s will being enacted before our eyes.

If that is so, opposition is from the anti-god faction. Amalek and Haman all over again.

Christian Zionists in the West enabled much of this. It all could have been handled differently.

Jewish history is not over. And Jewish history is tragic. The tenets of the religion contain its doom.

“Judaism is not a religion; it’s a misfortune”.

It cannot turn out well. That is one of the primary take-aways.

Any questions Immanuel?

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:35 pm I can help. Jews are deeply associated with those lands. Of that there is no doubt. But there was an exile in Roman times. True, some Jews remained, but the land was for centuries possessed by other peoples.

The exiled Jews always longed for return. But traditional Judaism saw the Exile as God’s command.

In the late 19th and early 20th century political Zionism developed as a solution to the many tragedies of the European situation.

There were smallish Jewish communities in Palestine at that time. But they did not have a Jewish state as their objective.

When the Zionists came in larger numbers they “took over the place” and used international connections to work their will.

They patterned their “return” on a biblical narrative and those who opposed them as their “eternal enemies” (Amalek, Haman).

Their conquest involved deep injustices. These have festered.

Did they have a “right” to take over the land again? Depends on who you ask and what narrative line they have invested in. God-believers see the recent “return” as a “sign”. It is God’s will being enacted before our eyes.

If that is so, opposition is from the anti-god faction. Amalek and Haman all over again.

Christian Zionists in the West enabled much of this. It all could have been handled differently.

Jewish history is not over. And Jewish history is tragic. The tenets of the religion contain its doom.

“Judaism is not a religion; it’s a misfortune”.

It cannot turn out well. That is one of the primary take-aways.

Any questions Immanuel?

Jews a bit a bit like a poor version of the ship of Theseus.
Brown people left the region between 2500 -1500 years ago, and in the 20thC all the White people, mainly Americans someone lay claim to the same lands.
There is even debate about whether the current groups of peoples calling themselves Jews are even familiarly related to those that once lived there.

What cannot be justified is the forcible removal of Palestines during the Nakba, and the creation of a giant concentration camp we now know as Gaza.
But do the Isrealis have a right to defend themselves? Does ANY occupying power ever have the right to defend itself against the people they are oppressing?
Do we blame the French resistence's atrocities against the Nazis? Such as arbitrary murder of Germans and French people working inside the German regime?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:28 pm There is even debate about whether the current groups of peoples calling themselves Jews are even familiarly related to those that once lived there.

This is another, and really quite strange, aspect about Judaism. Technically, Judaism depends on one's genetics. You could (technically) be a Jew but practice Shinto or Buddhism -- or completely deny every belief of Judaism. You are born of a Jewish mother (Reform Judaism is less strict: either parent can be Jewish) and thus are Jewish. If your mother is not Jewish you are not, technically, a Jew -- though you could believe every tenet and practice them all. You'd be required to go through a conversion.

So historically "marrying out" and not marrying "in" were profoundly frowned upon. In fact to marry out often resulted in general exile from one's former community. But these strict rules were maintained mostly, or most fiercely, in observant religious communities.

When the general Emancipation took place the idea was, in a sense, to assimilate Jews into the general populations where they resided. Judaism was perceived, wrongly in fact, as a religion and that one could choose the religion and thus become a Jew. Or decide to be something else. But it is much more complex. The Orthodox conversion process is difficult, demanding, and takes a long time. It can be done though. The Orthodox because of their fixation on genetics mirror in a weird way how the National Socialists defined who is, and who is not, a Jew.

However, here is the problem. When a Jew assimilates he ceases to be a Jew. Or he begins the process. When he exists the matrix of the community, and the community had always been a tightly woven religious and cultural one, his children are not raised in the tradition. Judaism has always functioned through separation. Assimilation is thus the bane of Judaism. People do though remain culturally Jewish for a generation or two but eventually they are lost in assimilation. They might say "My grandmother was Jewish" but it has little meaning.

Assimilation is greatly feared by practicing, Orthodox communities. It is possible that an "assimilated" Jew could choose to reenter the fold, and this does happen. But that means taking up the halachic regulations and involves, once again, separation and isolation.

"Being a Jew" is really a strange type of identification.

Judaism, and Jewishness, depend (and this is sort of amazing) on historical memory. The more strongly is your identification, the more strongly do you remain aware of the trails and tribulations of Jewish history. You know exactly where you are and how you got there.

And that is why is was possible, after centuries and millennia, to then return to Judea. And the memory led, naturally, to a reenactment of the original history of the original conquest.

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:09 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:28 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:17 pm

Forgive me if I don't accept your spin on the situation.

No spin. Just a little history, all publicly available. Google it yourself, if you doubt.

I am not well enough informed to debate it with you, but I am well enough informed to know that modern Israel is founded on land that was stolen.

Whoops. First mistake. It was as much the Jews' land as anybody's...arguably more, depending on what one thinks of God.

I don't give a toss about the Jews or the Palestinians,..

Good to know. Most people who voice an opinion seem to want us to think they actually care.

However, it's a little much to take when Lefties who cared nothing for the Asad massacres, the Yemen debacles or the Yom Kippur War suddenly get all teary about this situation...especially when they don't even mention Oct. 7th and how the current situation got going in the first place.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:35 pm It cannot turn out well. That is one of the primary take-aways.

Any questions Immanuel?

Just a comment. I think you'll probably only have to wait a little while to find out if that's true or not.