Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 8:40 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 7:12 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 7:07 pm That's merely trivial. So do football pitches, guardrails, cautions on prescriptions, and one's parents. As I said earlier, freedom is never absolute. But it is real.

Sounds about as trivial as any limits imposed by God.

I was referring to the fact of a superficial similarity of any kind. Your interpretation is purely gratuitious.

So the similarity where they all impose limits on your behaviour and command normatives is "superficial"?

OK...

Then your God is superficial.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 1:32 pmYes. Ultimately passin' the buck is what necessitarianism is about. But, as I say: each and every necessitarian, no matter where, no matter when, lives his life as a libertarian free will. Not a one naturally, or intentionally, lives as though he were not a libertarian free will.

Agreed, their mouths say Free Will doesn't exist, but their actions prove otherwise. They act as-if they do—and we should take them at their action, not at their word.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 7:57 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 1:32 pmYes. Ultimately passin' the buck is what necessitarianism is about. But, as I say: each and every necessitarian, no matter where, no matter when, lives his life as a libertarian free will. Not a one naturally, or intentionally, lives as though he were not a libertarian free will.

Agreed, their mouths say Free Will doesn't exist, but their actions prove otherwise. They act as-if they do—and we should take them at their action, not at their word.

so, there are actions that would show a lack of free will. Which ones?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:19 amso, there are actions that would show a lack of free will. Which ones?

What the heck??

Actions demonstrate Free-Will, not the lack of it!

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:51 am

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:19 amso, there are actions that would show a lack of free will. Which ones?

What the heck??

Actions demonstrate Free-Will, not the lack of it!

You said they act as if they have free will. It sounded like some actions show free will and others do not.

They act as-if they do—

If you meant all actions demonstrate free will, how so?

The simplest way I can explain it, is that Determinists selectively deny people are responsible for their actions, based on the contingency that they "did not consciously choose it". Then they are backed into the corner, as IC just pointed out, that their logic and rationality must be 'Determined' as well. So, to the "Hard Determinists", there is no possible proof nor evidence for Free-Will, because there exists no action, short of God's Divine Intervention...bringing the dead back to life, creating Something from Nothing, turning mountains upside-down, having dinner with Santa, the Easter bunny, fairies and Leprechauns...that gives 'evidence' to Free-Will.

To the Free-Will-ists, it's very simple.

Actions are evidence, and proof, of Free-Will. There's not much more to it.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:20 am The simplest way I can explain it, is that Determinists selectively deny people are responsible for their actions,

Some determinists do that. Others do not conclude that. That's been discussed in a number of threads including Compatibilism.

based on the contingency that they "did not consciously choose it". Then they are backed into the corner, as IC just pointed out, that their logic and rationality must be 'Determined' as well. So, to the "Hard Determinists", there is no possible proof nor evidence for Free-Will, because there exists no action, short of God's Divine Intervention...bringing the dead back to life, creating Something from Nothing, turning mountains upside-down, having dinner with Santa, the Easter bunny, fairies and Leprechauns...that gives 'evidence' to Free-Will.

I have never seen a determinist say anything like this. A there's no free will unless you can show me a miracle argument. Not once have I see this.

To the Free-Will-ists, it's very simple.

Actions are evidence, and proof, of Free-Will. There's not much more to it.

Then why say they act 'as if' they are free or believe in free will. IOW 'he is acting as if he is angry' would mean there are facets of his behavior that indication that trait. How are people acting 'as if' they have free will, such that it contradicts what they say?

And it seems like you are now saying it's just because with no justification. All life forms behave. Do they all have free will?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:32 am

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:20 am The simplest way I can explain it, is that Determinists selectively deny people are responsible for their actions,

Some determinists do that. Others do not conclude that. That's been discussed in a number of threads including Compatibilism.

based on the contingency that they "did not consciously choose it". Then they are backed into the corner, as IC just pointed out, that their logic and rationality must be 'Determined' as well. So, to the "Hard Determinists", there is no possible proof nor evidence for Free-Will, because there exists no action, short of God's Divine Intervention...bringing the dead back to life, creating Something from Nothing, turning mountains upside-down, having dinner with Santa, the Easter bunny, fairies and Leprechauns...that gives 'evidence' to Free-Will.

I have never seen a determinist say anything like this. A there's no free will unless you can show me a miracle argument. Not once have I see this.

I don't think you've argued with half as many Determinists I have...

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:32 amThen why say they act 'as if' they are free or believe in free will. IOW 'he is acting as if he is angry' would mean there are facets of his behavior that indication that trait. How are people acting 'as if' they have free will, such that it contradicts what they say?

And it seems like you are now saying it's just because with no justification. All life forms behave. Do they all have free will?

Free-Will doesn't contradict itself, Determinism does.

Yes, to varying degrees, animals have (a much smaller amount than human) free-will too.

And it varies within humanity. Some humans have a great deal of it (freedom), others much less so.

Is denying Free-Will, a choice?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:01 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 8:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 6:32 pm
That response doesn't even make sense.

"put up or shut up"
You've never head the phrase?

Sure. But it's nonsensical here, because it has no evident application to anything previously said. It's out-of-context.

Put you have not put up.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:39 am Is denying Free-Will, a choice?

Yes, a choice based on what you already know, and are capable of thinking.
In your case the thinking is too limited to be able the make any correct choices.

"BASED ON" is the operative phrase, since all we can do when we make a choice is base that on an equation of reason upon antecedent conditions.
But I realise I am going way over year head now, so I'll leave it there.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:39 am I don't think you've argued with half as many Determinists I have...

Peachy. Could you link me to a post here where someone argues your no miracles, no free will argument. Peter Kropotkin seemed to think free will entailed not being bound by the laws of nature. But someone else? You made it seem like determinists in general belief what you said. Please link me to some of these people here.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:32 amThen why say they act 'as if' they are free or believe in free will. IOW 'he is acting as if he is angry' would mean there are facets of his behavior that indication that trait. How are people acting 'as if' they have free will, such that it contradicts what they say?

And it seems like you are now saying it's just because with no justification. All life forms behave. Do they all have free will?

Free-Will doesn't contradict itself, Determinism does.

Yes, to varying degrees, animals have (a much smaller amount than human) free-will too.

And it varies within humanity. Some humans have a great deal of it (freedom), others much less so.
[/quote]
So, their behavior shows this somehow?
How do they manage to not have free will?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:40 am "BASED ON" is the operative phrase, since all we can do when we make a choice is base that on an equation of reason upon antecedent conditions.
But I realise I am going way over year head now, so I'll leave it there.

Yes, this is all confusing to me... Maybe I am too smart for philosophy. Maybe I am too dumb. Who knows?

So if you never use anything other than antecedent conditions to inform your choice; how are you using the future counter-factual consequences of your choice to inform your choice?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:49 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:40 am "BASED ON" is the operative phrase, since all we can do when we make a choice is base that on an equation of reason upon antecedent conditions.
But I realise I am going way over year head now, so I'll leave it there.

Yes, this is all confusing to me.... Maybe I am too dumb. Who knows?

I know
yep- you got it.
Stop right there.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:46 amPeachy. Could you link me to a post here where someone argues your no miracles, no free will argument. Peter Kropotkin seemed to think free will entailed not being bound by the laws of nature. But someone else? You made it seem like determinists in general belief what you said. Please link me to some of these people here.

Nope, because I prefer to keep my privacy.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:46 amSo, their behavior shows this somehow?
How do they manage to not have free will?

Because what one person considers free, another does not.

Birds can flap their wings and fly, are they freer than humans?