Philosophy Now Forum

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:05 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:53 am

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:18 pm

Even if you're just picking button #1 or 2, or A or B or whatever, might you not have a bias for one number or letter over the other?

You can eliminate that by having two similar buttons one leads to a desirable thing and another one indesirable.

They're still two buttons situated in some way that one can have a bias about. (left/right, above/below, etc.)

Are you saying that options are not real? The choice is meaningless?

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:46 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:05 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:53 am
You can eliminate that by having two similar buttons one leads to a desirable thing and another one indesirable.

They're still two buttons situated in some way that one can have a bias about. (left/right, above/below, etc.)

Are you saying that options are not real? The choice is meaningless?

No. But we always have biases.

Rightness is indistinguishable from OUGHT.

Good/bad is an IS distinction while good/evil is an OUGHT one.

Where IS and OUGHT align, that's justice.

[quote=bahman post_id=495658 time=1613040681 user_id=12593]
We are similar therefore we have to be fair. Fairness is the moral principle for the rightness of an action.
[/quote]

Reciprocity is a foundational element of society, but what is fair is entirely contingent upon individual circumstances. They must not be conflated.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:53 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:46 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:05 pm

They're still two buttons situated in some way that one can have a bias about. (left/right, above/below, etc.)

Are you saying that options are not real? The choice is meaningless?

No. But we always have biases.

There is no option if there is always a bias. That is kinda obvious considering our discussion.

Advocate wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:00 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:51 am We are similar therefore we have to be fair. Fairness is the moral principle for the rightness of an action.

Reciprocity is a foundational element of society, but what is fair is entirely contingent upon individual circumstances.

I agree.

Advocate wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:00 pm They must not be conflated.

I agree.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:00 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:53 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:46 pm
Are you saying that options are not real? The choice is meaningless?

No. But we always have biases.

There is no option if there is always a bias. That is kinda obvious considering our discussion.

I have no idea what you're thinking here. Say that we have a slightly weighted coin that comes up heads 75% of the time and tails 25% of the time. There's a bias in the coin, yet there are two possible outcomes.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:06 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:00 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:53 pm

No. But we always have biases.

There is no option if there is always a bias. That is kinda obvious considering our discussion.

I have no idea what you're thinking here. Say that we have a slightly weighted coin that comes up heads 75% of the time and tails 25% of the time. There's a bias in the coin, yet there are two possible outcomes.

Did you forget our discussion about choosing a button when both are the same? If your brain structured to push the right button instead of the left one then options are an illusion.

[quote=bahman post_id=496601 time=1613488343 user_id=12593]
[quote="Terrapin Station" post_id=496598 time=1613488003 user_id=12582]
[quote=bahman post_id=496593 time=1613487636 user_id=12593]

There is no option if there is always a bias. That is kinda obvious considering our discussion.
[/quote]

I have no idea what you're thinking here. Say that we have a slightly weighted coin that comes up heads 75% of the time and tails 25% of the time. There's a bias in the coin, yet there are two possible outcomes.
[/quote]
Did you forget our discussion about choosing a button when both are the same? If your brain structured to push the right button instead of the left one then options are an illusion.
[/quote]

There is no free will and the universe only happens one way from beginning to end. The universe doesn't actually HAVE a beginning or end but you understand my point nevertheless. The idea of freedom is similar.
It doesn't have an Actual existence, it exists in the causality gap. If we can't explain how, we start considering why. It's a heuristic.

Advocate wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:19 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:12 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:06 pm I have no idea what you're thinking here. Say that we have a slightly weighted coin that comes up heads 75% of the time and tails 25% of the time. There's a bias in the coin, yet there are two possible outcomes.

Did you forget our discussion about choosing a button when both are the same? If your brain structured to push the right button instead of the left one then options are an illusion.

There is no free will and the universe only happens one way from beginning to end. The universe doesn't actually HAVE a beginning or end but you understand my point nevertheless. The idea of freedom is similar.
It doesn't have an Actual existence, it exists in the causality gap. If we can't explain how, we start considering why. It's a heuristic.

Free will is real and necessary. Otherwise, we could not resolve a situation that the outcomes of options are not known. A deterministic entity simply halts in such a situation.

[quote=bahman post_id=496607 time=1613488937 user_id=12593]
[quote=Advocate post_id=496605 time=1613488742 user_id=15238]
[quote=bahman post_id=496601 time=1613488343 user_id=12593]

Did you forget our discussion about choosing a button when both are the same? If your brain structured to push the right button instead of the left one then options are an illusion.
[/quote]

There is no free will and the universe only happens one way from beginning to end. The universe doesn't actually HAVE a beginning or end but you understand my point nevertheless. The idea of freedom is similar.
It doesn't have an Actual existence, it exists in the causality gap. If we can't explain how, we start considering why. It's a heuristic.
[/quote]
Free will is real and necessary. Otherwise, we could not resolve a situation that the outcomes of options are not known. A deterministic entity simply halts in such a situation.
[/quote]

That's conflating ignorance with will. Uh-uh. Don't do that.

We don't know how causality works in all cases, therefore freedom, is not rational.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:12 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:06 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:00 pm
There is no option if there is always a bias. That is kinda obvious considering our discussion.

I have no idea what you're thinking here. Say that we have a slightly weighted coin that comes up heads 75% of the time and tails 25% of the time. There's a bias in the coin, yet there are two possible outcomes.

Did you forget our discussion about choosing a button when both are the same? If your brain structured to push the right button instead of the left one then options are an illusion.

You're not understanding the example I gave. You can have a bias where you favor left or right, but you're not going to push the one you're biased towards 100% of the time. So there's a bias, but the bias isn't deterministic. There's still a real choice.

In other words, a bias towards one thing versus another doesn't at all imply that only the biased thing is possible. It just means that there's a tendency to go with the biased option rather than other options.

Advocate wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:19 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:12 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:06 pm I have no idea what you're thinking here. Say that we have a slightly weighted coin that comes up heads 75% of the time and tails 25% of the time. There's a bias in the coin, yet there are two possible outcomes.

Did you forget our discussion about choosing a button when both are the same? If your brain structured to push the right button instead of the left one then options are an illusion.

There is no free will and the universe only happens one way from beginning to end. The universe doesn't actually HAVE a beginning or end but you understand my point nevertheless. The idea of freedom is similar.
It doesn't have an Actual existence, it exists in the causality gap. If we can't explain how, we start considering why. It's a heuristic.

I certainly do not buy that there is no free will. I don't at all buy that the universe works via causality in a manner where only one option is ever available from any state. And I'm not a realist on physical laws, by the way.

Advocate wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:31 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:22 pm

Advocate wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:19 pm There is no free will and the universe only happens one way from beginning to end. The universe doesn't actually HAVE a beginning or end but you understand my point nevertheless. The idea of freedom is similar.
It doesn't have an Actual existence, it exists in the causality gap. If we can't explain how, we start considering why. It's a heuristic.

Free will is real and necessary. Otherwise, we could not resolve a situation that the outcomes of options are not known. A deterministic entity simply halts in such a situation.

That's conflating ignorance with will. Uh-uh. Don't do that.

We don't know how causality works in all cases, therefore freedom, is not rational.

We know how causality works. You get one state of affair and it only gives you another state of affair. Do you know how to construct a machine that can decide about options in a causal universe?

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:33 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:12 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:06 pm

I have no idea what you're thinking here. Say that we have a slightly weighted coin that comes up heads 75% of the time and tails 25% of the time. There's a bias in the coin, yet there are two possible outcomes.

Did you forget our discussion about choosing a button when both are the same? If your brain structured to push the right button instead of the left one then options are an illusion.

You're not understanding the example I gave. You can have a bias where you favor left or right, but you're not going to push the one you're biased towards 100% of the time. So there's a bias, but the bias isn't deterministic. There's still a real choice.

In other words, a bias towards one thing versus another doesn't at all imply that only the biased thing is possible. It just means that there's a tendency to go with the biased option rather than other options.

Are you talking about a bias that you are not aware of it?