Philosophy Now Forum

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:56 pmSo what sort of punishment does punishing abortion deserve?

Something befitting the punishment the punisher meted out. Do you understand that I don't think it is appropriate to punish abortion?

tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:31 pm Something befitting the punishment the punisher meted out.

Since punishment for punishment's sake is immoral, what's the broader context in which you think any punishment is befitting?

tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:31 pm Do you understand that I don't think it is appropriate to punish abortion?

Do you understand that I don't think it's appropriate to punish for punishment sake?

tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:17 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:40 amI think ma has the same responsibilities to care for lil fetus person as he's usin' one of her kidneys as a punchin' bag as she does when lil fetus person is out & about & tryin' to lick a wall socket, and -- yeah -- I think ma ought to be subject to the same penalties if she neglects, abuses, or kills lil fetus person as she would be if she neglected, abused, or killed lil fetus person when he's out & about

like the man said: a person is a person, no matter how small

Given that no form of contraception is 100% effective, should women who do not wish to become pregnant abstain from sex?

men & women who don't wanna make brand-spankin' new persons can...

abstain, have vasectomies & tubal ligations, etc.

where do you stand on all this?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:47 pm

tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:31 pm Something befitting the punishment the punisher meted out.

Since punishment for punishment's sake is immoral, what's the broader context in which you think any punishment is befitting?

tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:31 pm Do you understand that I don't think it is appropriate to punish abortion?

Do you understand that I don't think it's appropriate to punish for punishment sake?

Yes I do, but nowhere have I suggested that anyone be punished for punishment's sake.

tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:59 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:47 pm

tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:31 pm Something befitting the punishment the punisher meted out.

Since punishment for punishment's sake is immoral, what's the broader context in which you think any punishment is befitting?

tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:31 pm Do you understand that I don't think it is appropriate to punish abortion?

Do you understand that I don't think it's appropriate to punish for punishment sake?

Yes I do, but nowhere have I suggested that anyone be punished for punishment's sake.

should murderers be punished?

tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:59 pm Yes I do, but nowhere have I suggested that anyone be punished for punishment's sake.

Well, you haven't suggested WHY anybody should be punished.

And without a WHY, I defaulted to assuming it's punishment for its own sake.

Correct me.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:00 pm should murderers be punished?

If it helps prevent future murders - yes.
If it has no effect on future murders - no.

If the side-effect of punishment is not a net-benefit to society, then it's punishment for its own sake.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:47 pmmen & women who don't wanna make brand-spankin' new persons can...

abstain, have vasectomies & tubal ligations, etc.

where do you stand on all this?

I think abortion is just a fact of life. It's unfortunate, but not murder in my view and I don't feel it is my business to make demands on other people's bodies and lives.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:04 pm

tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:59 pm Yes I do, but nowhere have I suggested that anyone be punished for punishment's sake.

Well, you haven't suggested WHY anybody should be punished.

And without a WHY, I defaulted to assuming it's punishment for its own sake.

Correct me.

Ah, in the context of your reply to Henry Quirk: even if there is no benefit in terms of future murders, I still think that murderers should be punished. So yes, by your definition, I do think that murderers should be punished for punishment's sake.

tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:19 pm I still think that murderers should be punished. So yes, by your definition, I do think that murderers should be punished for punishment's sake.

Why?

I would sooner accept "I get kicks out of punishing people" than I would accept "punishment for punishment's sake".

The former at least has some emotional/satisfactory utility.
The latter seems entirely pointless.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:20 pm

tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:19 pm I still think that murderers should be punished. So yes, by your definition, I do think that murderers should be punished for punishment's sake.

Why?

I would sooner accept "I get kicks out of punishing people" than I would accept "punishment for punishment's sake".

The former at least has some emotional/satisfactory utility.
The latter seems entirely pointless.

You have premised this on the assumption that punishment is no deterrent. Clearly in the case of someone guilty of murder, it wasn't deterrent enough, but there is no way to establish how much a deterrent a particular deterrent is without removing it and counting and comparing the bodies over a statistically significant time frame. Although in more civilised countries it has been done in the case of the death penalty, I think it is too risky an experiment to remove all punishment. But supposing it were done and it showed that there no punishment is a deterrence, then while I wouldn't call it "kicks", I would be pleased if murderers were nonetheless punished.

tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:47 pm You have premised this on the assumption that punishment is no deterrent.

I haven't. I have premised it on your insistence that punishment is for punishment's sake. Not for deterrence's sake.

tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:47 pm Although in more civilised countries it has been done in the case of the death penalty, I think it is too risky an experiment to remove all punishment.

It's only risky if you believe it is an effective deterrent; or that a more effective deterrent is not possible.

tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:47 pm But supposing it were done and it showed that there no punishment is a deterrence, then while I wouldn't call it "kicks", I would be pleased if murderers were nonetheless punished.

The self-gratification is indeed peculiar to me, but it's a peculiarity which makes murder objectively wrong.

Sufficient number of people are willing to act towards such pleasures.

Henry, your density and asshole behavior is not only sad, it's tiresome.

You don't answer the questions that are put to you -- rather, you twist them and dance around like a creepy little twisted up old man who can't stop lying to himself and everyone else because his dumbass ego is so very very precious to him.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:01 am how many abortions have you had, lace?

None.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:04 pm

tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:47 pm You have premised this on the assumption that punishment is no deterrent.

I haven't.

This is where you did so:

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:07 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:00 pm should murderers be punished?

If it helps prevent future murders - yes.
If it has no effect on future murders - no.

If the side-effect of punishment is not a net-benefit to society, then it's punishment for its own sake.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:01 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:01 am how many abortions have you had, lace?

None.

yeah, I don't believe you