Philosophy Now Forum

I think 'religion' is best thought of as an artistic expression (or system of expressions) that originated to explain something rational about reality but devolves into an interpretation that the artistic expression is itself the reality.

So when people create some artistic means to express the secular reality, if in time the original intention of the artistic expression meaning to AID in our understanding loses its LINK to the original secular meaning of the art, the art gets reinterpreted as 'literal' reality of the creators of it.

We create cartoons, like the Simpsons and South Park that act as comedic means to express our present reality. But if in some future the linguistic structure is changed and the original references to the substance of the humor based upon our reality is lost, some future society may falsely reinterpret the art AS THE SOURCE of the issues represented literally.

As such, being an atheist, I think religion still exists as what we find value in as entertainment and beauty. But it becomes dangerous if and when those who get in power utilize their interpretation of the art as something factual and/or literal and where they use that interpretation to justify their own actions in light of social justice. If one cannot find rationale in their actions, religious interpretation is utilized to excuse (apologize for) their behavior at odds with the secular or natural reality.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:18 pm
I understnd where you are coming from but just do not agree. It is true that my perceptions of another become thoughts but that doesn't make the other unreal. My thoughts do not create their reality. Our thoughts, emotions, and sensations do not create the other but just our interpretations of what they are.

Nick, I can only understand reality from my own unique direct experience which tells me that the world of other things that appear to be external to me are actually inside me as well....the external reality is the mirror which reflects back at me who I AM. I cannot know who I AM without that external mirror which is just myself reflecting back at me....because I cannot separate myself here from the world out there, there is no separation there at all....that there appears to be an external world is the illusory projection of you here...close your eyes and the seen world disappears, so all those seen images are only possible from you here. Same goes for all other senses, you cannot separate your hearing of a sound from the sound, you cannot separate the touching and feeling of an object from the object itself... nor can you separate the taster of an orange from the orange itself, even though the orange appears separate from the taster, you are the orange. Same goes for the scent of a flower, the scent of the flower is known in you not in the flower because the flower is you, it's arising in you...even though the flower appears to be outside of you, you cannot separate the smell of the flower from the smeller of the flower.

I'm using the word ''me'' as a conceptual pointer pointing to the AWARENESS that is aware of an external world. The ''me'' is the Formless Aware mirror reflecting back at itself in the form of other...which can only be itself...we know this to be true because we can do the mirror test ourself...the mirror and the relfection are always inseparably one in the same instant. The point is, the SELF the I AM cannot know itself without reflecting itself in it's own mirror. The mirror is fundamental, it's just another word for consciousness...consciousness doesn't require any thing (reflection ) to be something because it's no thing...but in order to be some thing, it has to reflect that some thing to itself...which will be always itself for there is only the mirror here looking at itself.

It's the other aka the external world there, that has created the capacity to know here..as I can only see myself in the other...in my reflection...I cannot see myself without the mirror..although I AM only the mirror looking at myself.
This is how I understand reality from my perspective, I cannot change that view.


I cannot see my own face, but I can see the face of another which is in my vision here not separate from me...that image of the face of another in me here triggers a ''thought here'' about what I have been shown or told by another there, ...for I do not know anything about me here without there, what other has shown me, or told me,...so then an interpretation arises here in me and then I identify with that thought as being who and what I AM..I take on that ''thought'' because it's all I know...all I can know about myself is the knowledge given to me by other add infinitum...so in fact the thoughts are not our own at all they belong to no thing nothingness, the void. Same with knowledge, which is just sound heard as words.

There is no THEIR reality..there is only ONE REALITY and many many interpretations about that reality. Of course the other person is real in the sense you are real, the one who is being right now, the other person there is real only because you are real here, so the other person is real to you ...that realness is being acknowledged here in you here not over there in the other...and you are able to acknowledge that only because the other is the mirror for you as I've explained earlier....Is it not true that the world view from the perspective of the ''Nick_A'' character (mind/body mechanism) is the only reality happening for you? and that while this unique perception is being viewed, absolutely nothing else is happening?
And that all other happenings are just thoughts about those happenings happening right here in you? ...notice how nothing is moving here, and that all movement is just ''thoughts'' moving in you here?

Sorry this is long winded Nick and you know this is just the way I see reality, I'm not saying it's true, it's just my direct experience..no one else has to believe a word I'm saying...we're all just showing what we know, and we can only know what we know from our own unique direct experience.

We don't have to agree or disagree with anyone else about what is real for us personally that's the beauty of freedom, we are free to be and see the world as we like...for there are many interpretations of reality ...aka sub-realities within the ONE reality.

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Arising_uk wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:16 pm Now shut your eyes and let someone sneak up and slap you around the head to disabuse you of that notion.

Like I've repeated to you many times you are AWARENESS all alone. The sensation of being slapped is known/felt by Awareness only.. not the body. No body ever slaps a body, no body is ever slapped...there's just the sensation of two surfaces making contact being felt and known in the same instant the sensation arises by Awareness. The sensation and the Awareness of the sensation are instantaneously present in the same moment. There is no separation between a sensation and the Awareness of that sensation they are always one in the same instant. In the same context, the sensation of the bum on the chair are inseparably one in the same instant, neither the chair or the bum knows and feels the sensation...it is Awareness that knows and feels.... if there's no contact between two surfaces aka (two objects) bum&chair... there's no Awareness of such ...but that doesn't mean Awareness is not there at all, it means the sensation of contact is not arising in Awareness ONLY.

The body is just a concept (object) known and felt by Awareness ...the body is a concept known...the KNOWN do not SEE or know anything because objects are not Aware...objects are being AWARED....objects do not exist apart from the knowing and feeling of them which is Awareness.

The mirror trick is the same contact that demonstrates how the ( No eye seeing eye...reveals itself to itself alone. ALL ONE

Shifting context..No I seeing I ...is all ONE in the same instant aka AWARENESS ..the mirror image of itself, I the image of the imageless.
NO AWARENESS - NO NOTHING.
But nothing cannot be, for nothing is never not here. Nothing cannot not be here, nothing is always here, there is only here. As Nothing I AM nowhere and everywhere all at once.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:16 pmIf not think about how sad one must be to need to be hit to feel connected.

There is no requirement for Awareness to be in contact with itself for it's all there is, since it's fundamental and the substratum of all that is. But in order to experience the known, contact is made with itself,and that contact is explained in the mirror trick...when one becomes an illusory two ...the split mind phenomena alternating from not-knowingness to an instantaneous knowing in the instant the contact is made with itself.

When Awareness knows sensation consciousness(mother) (other) is born...as and through the prism of the mind...aka the son...the son of the mother and the father who are all aspects of the SAME ONE...appearing as the many....aka the illusory KNOWN relatives aka images of the UNKNOWING imageless Absolute....aware of itself as an image.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:16 pm Now shut your eyes and let someone sneak up and slap you around the head to disabuse you of that notion. If not think about how sad one must be to need to be hit to feel connected.

Not looking in the mirror each morning will not effect your being in the slightest ...but I'm assuming you do look in the mirror each day ..do you not? ...you need that contact with yourself because you are self-conscious.

It's the same thing going on in reality when awareness knows sensation consciousness is born, the unconscious I comes into being, becomes self-aware.

If there was no such sensation as self-consciousness then there would be no need to look in the mirror.

Awareness then is a transcendental phenomena appearing as and through the mind that is expressing itself as a human being...as and through that material vehicle. It's just another experience no thing is having, aka the Absolute.

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Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:18 pm To say they are a figment of my imagination just seems to add an element of egoism which denies the value of the perennial teachings.

Nothing is being devalued here except the imagined notion that value exists, but imagination is all there is anyway and that's the magic of it in that it's a story arising here told by no one, it's the play of consciousness itself. No one has imagination, it doesn't belong to a someone, there is no ''my imagination'' for no one knows what imagination is only that it is..it's just another method mind uses to describe it's unknown mental activity, no one knows what is the mind,except what is imagination arising here.

That does not take anything away from the amazing totality of all that is, was and ever will be nowhere forever infinitely for eternity.

The story of christianity and churches etc ..or how valuable that is...is just another experience of the infinite experiencer.
The ego too is just another experience...experiences are infinite in their expression.

The story of humans building churches and being a christian is an experience, it's a single facet of the one infinite intelligence at work...the activity is unique to humans only so it seems, because we do not see animals building churches where they can visit each sunday to worship their God...so from that perspective the activity is just one of a multitude of experiences of infinite intelligence...nothing wrong or without value about that. Value or not is an appearance in the story only when mind puts it there or not.


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DaM

Nothing is being devalued here except the imagined notion that value exists, but imagination is all there is anyway and that's the magic of it in that it's a story arising here told by no one, it's the play of consciousness itself. No one has imagination, it doesn't belong to a someone, there is no ''my imagination'' for no one knows what imagination is only that it is..it's just another method mind uses to describe it's unknown mental activity, no one knows what is the mind,except what is imagination arising here.

Our essential difference. For me the conscious universe must include relative values for it to be maintained. The universe is the body of God and must be cared for just as your body must be cared for on a smaller scale. But for you all this is imaginary. You can see how we can never agree.

The third dimension of thought reveals objective value. We have become closed to it and are satisfied with dualism or escapism. Under these circumstances it is natural to deny objective values.

Dontaskme wrote:

Nothing is being devalued here except the imagined notion that value exists,

The imagined notion that value exists is a good notion , except if I'm sure that my values are eternal values.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:47 pm
Our essential difference. For me the conscious universe must include relative values for it to be maintained.

Maintenance which is just another fancy word for intelligence can only come from an absolute level as infinite intelligence is all there is.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:47 pm The universe is the body of God and must be cared for just as your body must be cared for on a smaller scale. But for you all this is imaginary. You can see how we can never agree.

For the sense of I exist, this sense of being a (mind body mechanism) I can only hold to the God of my own I's understanding as and through the perceptive lens of this particular (mind body mechanism) This understanding is revealed during any practice of self-inquiry until it is auspiciously seen and known as a unique direct experience.

So for me, my direct experience is that everything is God, and that there is only God. . for me, once that realisation is digested, no further inquiry is necessary or needed. At this point there is a final awakening where I renounce everything back to the Godhead, for me, there is no need to delve into apparent details that is essentially nothing more than just different aspects and facets of God anyway...the many of the ONE.
Caring of the body either happens or it doesn't ..whether is does or it doesn't, it's still just the many faces of God experiencing itself in infinite ways.
Ultimately everything is perfect just as it is because it's all God. Everything is working just fine..although it doesn't always appear to be, but nonetheless...IT IS..it's totally grand beyond all comprehension.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:47 pmThe third dimension of thought reveals objective value. We have become closed to it and are satisfied with dualism or escapism. Under these circumstances it is natural to deny objective values.

There is no dualism or escapism except as concept, aka imagined. Reality is Non-dual in all circumstances..this is not imagined, imagination is otherness, because in God there is no other....God had never known or seen God, there is only knowing / seeing God...aka this Nondual reality.
There is nowhere to escape to or from, there is no one to escape to or from...there is only THIS NOW infinitely for eternity...this is God.
God is fundamentally the great void of nothingness appearing as every conceiveable permutation imaginable. So reality is both real and unreal simultaneously.

You cannot escape being because there is no one being, because there is no one not being. Being and not-being are ONE in the same instant, instantaneously manifesting all at once ONE WITHOUT A SECOND...NOW...which is just another word for INFINITY...and infinty never completes so it's never dual/two.. it is non-dual. Dual means ONE and ONE is actually Zero....and all this can be realised as direct experience as the consciousness that is being expressed as and through the human (mind body mechanism) is expressing itself as a trancendental phenomena...meaning it can know both the empty and fullness of it's existence as being the same stateless state.



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