Philosophy Now Forum

Near death experience is not death. NDE is just the brain firing off random bullshit.

seeds wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:02 pm Speculatively speaking, if there truly does exist a more wondrous and transcendent level of reality awaiting us following the death of the body, have you ever given serious critical thought as to what might happen if it was not momentarily hidden from us?

Greta wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:15 pm I think that everyone would be a lot happier, much less anxious. This is what happens with NDE survivors. They go through the experience, find it awesome, and then come back to life with much less fear of death. Having that perspective didn't seem to do them any harm so why should it hurt the rest of us?

I am not talking about some vague and dream-like NDE.

I am talking about a complete rending of the “veil,” so to speak, wherein we could all literally see our departed friends and loved ones - still alive in a wondrous new form and setting – summoning us to join them.

Use that rich and bountiful imagination of yours to visualize every human on the entire planet having absolute confidence in an irrefutable guarantee that all they have to do is find a quick and easy way of gently exiting their body and they will find themselves birthed and awakened into their true and ultimate form.

Clearly, this is just a thought experiment, nevertheless, try to enter into a full and critical assessment of the scenario and tell me what you think humans would do if given such a choice?
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seeds wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:56 am

seeds wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:02 pm Speculatively speaking, if there truly does exist a more wondrous and transcendent level of reality awaiting us following the death of the body, have you ever given serious critical thought as to what might happen if it was not momentarily hidden from us?

Greta wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:15 pm I think that everyone would be a lot happier, much less anxious. This is what happens with NDE survivors. They go through the experience, find it awesome, and then come back to life with much less fear of death. Having that perspective didn't seem to do them any harm so why should it hurt the rest of us?

I am not talking about some vague and dream-like NDE.

I am talking about a complete rending of the “veil,” so to speak, wherein we could all literally see our departed friends and loved ones - still alive in a wondrous new form and setting – summoning us to join them.

Use that rich and bountiful imagination of yours to visualize every human on the entire planet having absolute confidence in an irrefutable guarantee that all they have to do is find a quick and easy way of gently exiting their body and they will find themselves birthed and awakened into their true and ultimate form.

Clearly, this is just a thought experiment, nevertheless, try to enter into a full and critical assessment of the scenario and tell me what you think humans would do if given such a choice?

Would you anticipate mass suicide? However, all models that posit a realm as you describe also claim that it is only within this life where one can impact on reality, to do and achieve.

Knowing all this - both the joy and relative impotence of "the other dimension" - then humanity could live their lives and make what they could happen, shaping reality as they thought right, confident in the fact that a happy ending was in store for all. Instead, people are plagued with fear and doubt and hostility.

Sure, I've thought this could just be "the caterpillar stage" where we are expected to mindlessly consume and compete. They are all just guesses, though, yours and mine.

Greta wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:58 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:27 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:06 pm

Seems to me: man always makes god in his own image.

Man is a concept known (an object of my desire) the object is an image of the imageless.

Can the desirer be seen? ..no it can't.

Concepts are known, the concept doesn't know, the concept doesn't exist apart from the knower, the knower cannot be known by the known concept. You are the knower of the concept, not the known concept...because concepts can't see or know anything, they are the desire of the seer knower that cannot be seen, for that which cannot be seen/known.. it is the seeing /knowing.

Henry, if you find the above difficult, I can help clarify:

Everything is a dream but you don't know it because dreams are concepts and they can't be known because that would require a knower, and since a knower does not exist then the knower, who does not exist, cannot exist and neither can the known...because concepts too aren't real and cannot see or know anything just as the seer cannot be seen, the hearer cannot be heard, nor the taster tasted, nor even the nonireceptor nonireceived.. so what you know is not known because it is not really real, only the seeing and knowing, which is also an illusion.

The seeing and knowing is not an illusion.

You are the seeing and knowing. That cannot be negated. There is no you because there is no other than you. You cannot be negated.

You cannot know the seer and knower because you are the seer and knower....to know would require another seer and knower...there is no such other.

The appearance of 'other' is simply your own reflection, an appearance in you, not outside of you. The world ''out there'' is your own mirror looking back at you, it is the reflection of you. You cannot exist without the mirror, and the mirror cannot exist without you. Therefore there is only the mirror ..which is all you. this mirror cannot be negated. The mirror is just another word for consciousness or awareness.

The you's that appear to be outside of you, are really appearances in you...and the you that is here, is an appearance in the you's that appear to be outside of you because every you is the same one consciousness appearing to itself from a different perspective.

You don't have to believe this of course, but it's what's known as nondual thinking, the final truth.

Believe what you want greta, what ever makes sense to you. As for me, I can only make up my own sense how I personally perceive reality. And that's all that matters.

Just because I understand nondual knowledge doesn't mean I stop interacting with the world...I still live like everyone else and enjoy life..it's just that i see it differently now, i see it for what it really is rather than what other people tell me it is.


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DAM, yours is just just a very windy and higgledly-piggedly way of expressing the old and well-known concept of process philosophy, the idea that processes are more fundamental than things.

Your doublespeak gimmickry isn't necessary. Just read up on process philosophers - if you can countenance learning from someone else.

Greta wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:41 am DAM, yours is just just a very windy and higgledly-piggedly way of expressing the old and well-known concept of process philosophy, the idea that processes are more fundamental than things.

Your doublespeak gimmickry isn't necessary. Just read up on process philosophers - if you can countenance learning from someone else.

You haven’t a clue, Greta. You must (to use a Christian and poorly understood expression), “die to the self.”

Greta wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:41 am DAM, yours is just just a very windy and higgledly-piggedly way of expressing the old and well-known concept of process philosophy, the idea that processes are more fundamental than things.

Your doublespeak gimmickry isn't necessary. Just read up on process philosophers - if you can countenance learning from someone else.

Learning from others is when I need reminding of what I already know because I have temporally forgotten.

As soon as you get into the idea that knowledge is copyrighted material you are creating the double speak which is not necessary. Rather it will only serve to hinder the ultimate goal of the philosopher which is to understand the nature of reality with absolute clarity of vision. And in turn helping other to see the bigger picture creating a world of mutual understanding, happiness, harmony, and unity..else the alternative is the misery self of me verses them, a world of isolation and competition ...it's all your own choice how you want to see and live in the world...we make our choices and pay our prices ..each to their own.

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Reflex wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:12 am

Greta wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:41 am DAM, yours is just just a very windy and higgledly-piggedly way of expressing the old and well-known concept of process philosophy, the idea that processes are more fundamental than things.

Your doublespeak gimmickry isn't necessary. Just read up on process philosophers - if you can countenance learning from someone else.

You haven’t a clue, Greta. You must (to use a Christian and poorly understood expression), “die to the self.”

Let her live in the world of living and dying if that's what she desires.

There are here which Greta fails to see, or just doesn't want to see, I'm not sure which....There are/is here, those who live as limitation, and those who live limitless. It's merely a choice one desires to make.

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Greta wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:41 am DAM, yours is just just a very windy and higgledly-piggedly way of expressing the old and well-known concept of process philosophy, the idea that processes are more fundamental than things.

Your doublespeak gimmickry isn't necessary. Just read up on process philosophers - if you can countenance learning from someone else.

Knowledge has no copyright except in the dream of separation....to feel separated is the misery self, no one likes to feel separated, isolated.

When a ''someone'' the ''misery self'' makes a claim that it itself owns an idea, then that means no one else can take it, that's known as copyright.
However, there is a problem with this idea...

Say the idea was something no one had ever thought of before, this doesn't mean that the idea belongs exclusively to that ''someone'' ...because it was just a thought...and thoughts don't belong to a ''someone'' ...the source of every thought is everywhere...which is just another word for here now ..nowhere.

The idea had to have already existed.. else it could not have been thought of at all. What we do as this body mind mechanism, is discover what is already here...the body mind mechanism is not the source of a thought, it is the mechanism whereby the thought is able to become manifest..the body mind mechanism is the action figure so to speak, to make the unmanifest manifest.


When someone thought of the idea to build an aeroplane that had never been thought of before, doesn't mean no one else was allowed to build an aeroplane...do you get what I mean?

Labeling and patenting an idea is falsely claiming and owning that idea, ....when in reality ideas belong to no one and everyone because they are all sourced from the same place, namely here now...and NOW does not make any claim of ITSELF....No claim, no blame, no fame.


That which claims, names, blames, and seeks fame, is the misery self.

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Reality or the universe doesn't care that it's information is copyrighted, (borrowed) ...it's all giving and complete, it doesn't need anything, it doesn't claim anything, it is everything. It's the gift that keeps on giving to itself only. Both giver and receiver are one.

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In the story of I, the fictional character of DAM....she could write a book on the subject of nonduality...and make a pot load of money probably, but I have no desire to do this, as I know people have heard it all before.

It's only when we want to know something we don't already know...do we turn to other...our other self that does know.

It's clear who these comments are for . . . they're for mind. Not in the sense of trying to educate mind how to awaken to the truth of ''what is'' but in the sense of showing mind how to recognise it's limitations.

First, ''what is'' doesn’t need reminding about anything, because it doesn’t need anything. Second, ''what is'' is limitless, while mind is not. Meaning, mind can soar as high as it can and never reach beyond itself.

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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:05 pmThe idea had to have already existed.. else it could not have been thought of at all.

This is precisely the sort of assertion that by your own definition of wisdom shows a complete lack of it. You cannot possibly demonstrate that this is true, and yet your faith is enough to persuade you that it is a fact. That is how you develop a mythology, but it is a crippling impediment to understanding the real world.

uwot wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:59 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:05 pmThe idea had to have already existed.. else it could not have been thought of at all.

This is precisely the sort of assertion that by your own definition of wisdom shows a complete lack of it. You cannot possibly demonstrate that this is true, and yet your faith is enough to persuade you that it is a fact. That is how you develop a mythology, but it is a crippling impediment to understanding the real world.

Thankfully, I have no need to understand the real world..I'm already being it.

The need to Understand it ...can only arise to the sense of a ''separate self''. When that is understood, there is nothing to understand.

You can make this simple understanding as simple or as complicated as you like, your the one that has to carry the burden.

Make it as light as possible, or not, it's your choice.

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The only mythology here is the belief in a separate me.

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The mind will reject this, so be it.

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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:05 pmThe idea had to have already existed.. else it could not have been thought of at all.

uwot wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:59 pmThis is precisely the sort of assertion that by your own definition of wisdom shows a complete lack of it. You cannot possibly demonstrate that this is true.

The idea must have existed else it could not have been thought of.

The you that believes it is having an idea..is the idea.

You are never not here.

Where else is an idea coming from?

Do you have any idea?

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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:56 pmThe idea must have existed else it could not have been thought of.

Nonsense.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:56 pmThe you that believes it is having an idea..is the idea.

That, as Descartes pointed out, is one possibility. There are others and, as you pointed out, it may be wise to realise that "you only have your own version of truth to rely on", but it is ignorant to assume it is the only one.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:56 pmYou are never not here.

Until I'm not.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:56 pmWhere else is an idea coming from?

Do you have any idea?

Plenty. Think of ideas like music. What exists are the notes; even they are arbitrary. In the west we have invented a particular scale from a few mathematical principles which is the basis for most of western music. Other scales are available. Same with time signatures. There is an infinite number of permutations, even within particular musical structures, so to say that every permutation already exists is to completely fail to understand infinity. What is true of music is even more true of ideas. Some people write clumsy nursery rhymes, others write symphonies, or at least a decent rock and roll record.

uwot wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:44 pm
Nonsense.

Non-sense.

uwot wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:44 pmThat, as Descartes pointed out, is one possibility. There are others and, as you pointed out, it may be wise to realise that "you only have your own version of truth to rely on", but it is ignorant to assume it is the only one.

There is only ONE in which all versions of truth are but appearances...but if the shoe fits.

You are never not here.

uwot wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:44 pmUntil I'm not.

You can never not not be here.

Where else is an idea coming from?

uwot wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:44 pmPlenty. Think of ideas like music. What exists are the notes; even they are arbitrary. In the west we have invented a particular scale from a few mathematical principles which is the basis for most of western music. Other scales are available. Same with time signatures. There is an infinite number of permutations, even within particular musical structures, so to say that every permutation already exists is to completely fail to understand infinity. What is true of music is even more true of ideas. Some people write clumsy nursery rhymes, others write symphonies, or at least a decent rock and roll record.

Huh!

I asked where do ideas come from? ..not that they come from other ideas...if they come from other ideas as a thought is triggered by the previous thought.....then where did the very first idea/thought that ever was/is come from? That's what I'm asking.



That which is unknown, will eventually become known....but that which is unknowable can never be known.

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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:21 pmI asked where do ideas come from? ..not that they come from other ideas...

Here's an idea for you: frogs can survive on a diet of marmite. Granted it's not a very good idea, but it can be tested and if you are cruel enough, you can do so. The individual letters are not ideas in themselves, but they can be structured in such a way that they can represent ideas. I think the misapprehension that you are under is that any string of letters represents a coherent idea.