I KNOW 'God' exists ask me about it i experienced the TESTamenT

[attofishpi]

I suppose that has been one of my many problems with the concept of religion and God. If a lack of association with divinity changes the value of true wisdom, I think there is something wrong there. The emphasis seems to be on divinity not on wisdom.

Yes, but isn't this man's 'folly'. Would atheists or theists at the time having listened to Jesus's words have exalted him? It is not 'religions' fault because religion IS about divinity.

It is not man's folly but the folly of the religious man because it is he who places the emphasis on divinity rather than wisdom. And that raises questions about religion because that is what originally induced the concept of the supremacy of divinity.

Do you consider the teachings of Jesus as wise?
If so, you are contradicting yourself here - there is no folly of the religious man for exalting Jesus is there?
What would the atheist have done? IGNORE HIM.

And having an emphasis on divinity is the wisest choice a man can make - because God does exist.

[sthitapragya]

Do you consider the teachings of Jesus as wise?
If so, you are contradicting yourself here - there is no folly of the religious man for exalting Jesus is there?
What would the atheist have done? IGNORE HIM.

And having an emphasis on divinity is the wisest choice a man can make - because God does exist.

Some of what Jesus said is wise and some of it isn't in my personal opinion. But I was asking from the perspective of a theist. Would a theist come to the same conclusion if he did not believe Jesus was the son of God? The belief that he is the son of God probably makes everything Jesus said wise and true for a believer. Does a believer disagree with anything Jesus said? And would he have disagreed with some things if he did not believe Jesus was God?

I think an atheist would probably come to the same conclusion that I did. Some of what he said is wise some of it is not.

[Belinda]

If a lack of association with divinity changes the value of true wisdom, I think there is something wrong there.

Good point. It also doesn't make sense to me that divinity has boundaries. Boundaries seem clearly manmade for man's purposes.

Boundaries made by God the Creator make sense as boundaries are what creation depends on. Boundaries are differences between one thing and another and one time and another. If creation had no boundaries either in reality or in one's thinking then there would be no creation of a relative, temporal world.

The OT myth about how God created one thing after another in seven days is about how Creation makes order out of chaos. Chaos is utter lack of boundaries. (Creation, creation with a small c also makes order out of chaos and that is what artists do artists make order out of chaos.)

[attofishpi]

Do you consider the teachings of Jesus as wise?
If so, you are contradicting yourself here - there is no folly of the religious man for exalting Jesus is there?
What would the atheist have done? IGNORE HIM.

And having an emphasis on divinity is the wisest choice a man can make - because God does exist.

Some of what Jesus said is wise and some of it isn't in my personal opinion. But I was asking from the perspective of a theist. Would a theist come to the same conclusion if he did not believe Jesus was the son of God? The belief that he is the son of God probably makes everything Jesus said wise and true for a believer. Does a believer disagree with anything Jesus said? And would he have disagreed with some things if he did not believe Jesus was God?

I think an atheist would probably come to the same conclusion that I did. Some of what he said is wise some of it is not.

You are asking from the perspective of a theist? Whereas i am answering from the perspective of man - regarding the question of our Quest for Wisdom.

Don't start creating lines between man - theist and atheist, when you know for a fact that Jesus's words would have been lost for all eternity if left to those that never believed in God - the atheists ....AND would have been lost for all eternity if theists did not get their connection to 'divinity'.

[Lacewing]

It also doesn't make sense to me that divinity has boundaries. Boundaries seem clearly manmade for man's purposes.

Boundaries made by God the Creator make sense as boundaries are what creation depends on.

Belinda, I was thinking of the boundaries that determine what is divine and what is not (because sthitapragya was pointing out that divinity is what some theists use to measure wisdom). I'm wondering why man is deciding what is divine and what is not, such that he can then decide what is wisdom and truth and worthy, and what is not?

If God is the all-knowing creator of everything, and everything of God is divine, where did the non-divine stuff come from? If everything God created is NOT divine, then who interprets and assigns these boundaries of divinity other than man for man's purposes... and how truthful and reliable and all-knowing is that?

[Belinda]

It also doesn't make sense to me that divinity has boundaries. Boundaries seem clearly manmade for man's purposes.

Boundaries made by God the Creator make sense as boundaries are what creation depends on.

Belinda, I was thinking of the boundaries that determine what is divine and what is not (because sthitapragya was pointing out that divinity is what some theists use to measure wisdom). I'm wondering why man is deciding what is divine and what is not, such that he can then decide what is wisdom and truth and worthy, and what is not?

If God is the all-knowing creator of everything, and everything of God is divine, where did the non-divine stuff come from? If everything God created is NOT divine, then who interprets and assigns these boundaries of divinity other than man for man's purposes... and how truthful and reliable and all-knowing is that?

Lacewing, I understand that theists such as Jews, Christians, and Muslims claim that God transcends his creation and also is inside of (immanent in) his creation. Some people believe that God himself revealed this knowledge of God to humans. Other people believe that there is no divine revelation but that humans have come to believe in transcendent God largely through the ministrations of the Old Testament prophets as men, not as recipients of revelations from God.

[sthitapragya]

You are asking from the perspective of a theist? Whereas i am answering from the perspective of man - regarding the question of our Quest for Wisdom.

Don't start creating lines between man - theist and atheist, when you know for a fact that Jesus's words would have been lost for all eternity if left to those that never believed in God - the atheists ....AND would have been lost for all eternity if theists did not get their connection to 'divinity'.

Well, we have to create a line because we are talking about religion. Jesus has something to do with man and everything to do with Christianity. So we cannot avoid discussions as atheists and theists.

[attofishpi]

You are asking from the perspective of a theist? Whereas i am answering from the perspective of man - regarding the question of our Quest for Wisdom.

Don't start creating lines between man - theist and atheist, when you know for a fact that Jesus's words would have been lost for all eternity if left to those that never believed in God - the atheists ....AND would have been lost for all eternity if theists did not get their connection to 'divinity'.

Well, we have to create a line because we are talking about religion. Jesus has something to do with man and everything to do with Christianity. So we cannot avoid discussions as atheists and theists.

If you are still set on drawing lines, then you are an 'atheist' and i am not a 'theist', what am 'i'?

[sthitapragya]

You are asking from the perspective of a theist? Whereas i am answering from the perspective of man - regarding the question of our Quest for Wisdom.

Don't start creating lines between man - theist and atheist, when you know for a fact that Jesus's words would have been lost for all eternity if left to those that never believed in God - the atheists ....AND would have been lost for all eternity if theists did not get their connection to 'divinity'.

Well, we have to create a line because we are talking about religion. Jesus has something to do with man and everything to do with Christianity. So we cannot avoid discussions as atheists and theists.

If you are still set on drawing lines, then you are an 'atheist' and i am not a 'theist', what am 'i'?

You are a believer in God which is, for simplification, called a theist. You could be a deist or a theist or some other classification of someone who believes in God. Within the label, the classifications are not relevant. For example, I am not really an atheist but a apatheist or apadeist. But for simplification if I am labeled an atheist, I have no problems with that.

Also, I am not set on drawing any lines. But for the purpose of the discussion on God, there is no escaping the fact that the lines have been drawn between those who believe and those who do not.

[osgart]

what created us has severe limits and deficiencies. Perhaps our creators have always lived and had bodies of their own at one time. We are most certainly created though, for intelligence must pre exist for intelligence to form. And natures food a primitive provision for us. Is all of life tied to nature or is their a crossover point between this physics and the spiritual.
THIS reality has no business producing life. Yet it is highly tuned to do just that. Perhaps our creators are nefarious and created us for their utility. Perhaps our purpose is to explore all things of a wild brute reality. Nevertheless we are prisoners of our creators in a junk world.

[Lacewing]

what created us has severe limits and deficiencies. Perhaps our creators have always lived and had bodies of their own at one time. We are most certainly created though, for intelligence must pre exist for intelligence to form. And natures food a primitive provision for us. Is all of life tied to nature or is their a crossover point between this physics and the spiritual.
THIS reality has no business producing life. Yet it is highly tuned to do just that. Perhaps our creators are nefarious and created us for their utility. Perhaps our purpose is to explore all things of a wild brute reality. Nevertheless we are prisoners of our creators in a junk world.

Perhaps time and boundaries are an illusion, and "WE" have created (or are participants in creating) this manifestation of energy.

[Belinda]

Lacewing wrote:

Perhaps time and boundaries are an illusion, and "WE" have created (or are participants in creating) this manifestation of energy.

If time and boundaries are illusionary then entire temporal existence is illusory. Temporal existence depends upon 'boundaries'.

I read 'boundaries' as one event or entity differing from other events or entities. True, there are cultural variations regarding where exactly the boundaries are located. However even if the boundaries are imposed upon existence itself by accultured consciousnesses, boundaries there have to be. Following Kant, despite that boundaries themselves are invisible to us nevertheless there be boundaries.

[Lacewing]

If time and boundaries are illusionary then entire temporal existence is illusory. Temporal existence depends upon 'boundaries'.

Yes... I think so. I think our ideas depend on the vantage point. If we are IN it and attached to it... it IS real and solid, and boundaries are necessary. If we are NOT in it (such as due to a near death experience, or psychedelic drug experience, or shamanic experience, or other unattached state of being/perspective)... it can be experienced as dreamlike, in which boundaries disappear (and additional capability may be accessible, as well), and the sight from that vantage point is just as clear as anything ELSE we may have "seen".

Our day-to-day experience is surely not what it appears to be EXCEPT FOR the human's level of understanding and awareness.

When we talk about a god who created ALL, we are talking about the perspective of everything as being real and solid and linear (as we see it). So a god who is tied to that view would therefore be as limited and illusionary as that single view is -- although from within that view, that god might be as totally real as everything else is from within that particular view. I think THAT wonderfully points to how magnificent the spectrum and depth of this experience is. So much experiential potential!!! So many ways to do it and see it and fully be!

I can't seem to help but try to acknowledge and appreciate the VAST potential that seems so apparent. I think that's why when someone says "this is how it is", I want to say, "But wait, THERE'S MORE!!" There always seems to be more! So much more than we can ever guess or fathom. Whatever we come up with obviously revolves around what we can see and understand at any given moment... and that is limited. Such doesn't negate the magnificence of the experience. There's no need to become depressed and want to leave just because the experience (and we, ourselves) may not be as solid or important as we might want to think in our limited terms.

Are humans unable to be free or function or empowered without an ultimate reason or purpose for experiencing?

[Belinda]

Lacewing asked:

Are humans unable to be free or function or empowered without an ultimate reason or purpose for experiencing?

I doubt it. Even trying to remain alive is a sufficient reason or purpose. Some people's reason or purpose is revenge and indeed there have been cultures where forgiveness is unheard of and revenge is what an honourable man's purpose is.

When life events are too horrible to contemplate then it's a big help if the sufferer can attribute the events to a God-given learning experience, but sometimes the events are too horrible for them to be attributed to a good God and in that case some people can fall back upon religious rituals . Some religions are not philosophical and are all about ritual praise with no hope of any reward only faith that there does exist goodness and truth somewhere unseen.

I think that clinical depression's worst symptom is all-consuming ennui, or apathy.

[attofishpi]

Well, we have to create a line because we are talking about religion. Jesus has something to do with man and everything to do with Christianity. So we cannot avoid discussions as atheists and theists.

If you are still set on drawing lines, then you are an 'atheist' and i am not a 'theist', what am 'i'?

You are a believer in God which is, for simplification, called a theist.

You expect me to accept that even though i know God\'God' exists, i am a theist - a mere believer. Or are you suggesting the term theist can be applied to someone who knows God exists, but only believes in what 'it' has stated?

Also, I am not set on drawing any lines. But for the purpose of the discussion on God, there is no escaping the fact that the lines have been drawn between those who believe and those who do not.

Yes, but you appear to fail to real eyes that if weren't for the believers the wisdom of great men like Jesus would have been lost.