Is God everywhere or not?

[attofishpi]

Well, the ten commandments are only in the bible and not in the other older religions.

The ten commandments stem from Judaism.

And don't you think that the ten commandments are pretty easy to figure out all by oneself?

Sure, and we tend to have more than 10 commandments as per constitutional\civil law.

That raises the question why did God create extensions of ITself which were so stupid that they could not figure out the ten commandments themselves?

It didn't.

NO!!! The progression of entropy could quite likely dictate the progression of lessening of 'God's' forgivefullness as we all eventually face the demise of our souls.

Why is that a problem? Why should our souls not die? What is so bad about death?

Personally i can take or leave eternal existence. A lot of people would prefer to live beyond a single lifetime.

I dont think such an entity can create entropy, much in the same way i dont believe this entity created the universe. Im more of the opinion that this entity is a result of the universes existence and ergo possibly a result of the onset of entropy.

Are you sure other theists would agree with you? You are essentially saying that God is not really omnipotent and there is something IT did not create and is not in ITs control.

I don't care whether THEISTS agree or disagree with me. I am not a THEIST, I KNOW God exists and as far as i am aware there is not a term for that. When it comes to our existence and our entire reality God is, extremely close to, omnipotent.

I believe the soul to be a material part of your DNA.

But isn't every atom of the body and extension of God? Why is a soul necessary when every particle in the body is essentially an extension of God?

A soul is necessary to transcend from one entire body to another (like a teeny weeny little seed).

No. You are not God. Your consciousness and entire being is an extension of IT.

Are you saying that if God had toenails, then the toenails would not be God?

Precisely. Much in the same way my toenails are not me, they are an extension, a part of me.

An extension of God is still a part of God.

Yes, as above.

You cannot exclude it and say this is not God and that is not God. When you say I am not God, you cannot say I am excluded from God. I am still an extension of God. I might not represent God in all ITs might and power, but I am still an integral part of God. Without me, God would be incomplete.

Yes, i will reiterate, you are NOT God.
You are confusing yourself here. You appear to be suggesting that your toenail is YOU?

Oh and I would like to sincerely thank you for staying on topic. I really appreciate it. I hope you understand that since I love to argue, I have every intention of trying to corner you as you probably want to corner me. But that is it. This is a healthy argument and I thank you for your participation.

Ditto. Although i dont care much for cornering people when i am attempting to discover some sort of truth. Since we are discussing the existence of God and i am discussing it with an atheist, i unfortunately expect to discover little in the way of truth.

[attofishpi]

Which god are you talking about?

Man creating a multitude of religions, and having multiple interpretations over the aeons does not change the state of God.

[Hobbes' Choice]

like asking is dogshit god, or not.

[sthitapragya]

That raises the question why did God create extensions of ITself which were so stupid that they could not figure out the ten commandments themselves?

It didn't.

Then what did?

I believe the soul to be a material part of your DNA.

But isn't every atom of the body and extension of God? Why is a soul necessary when every particle in the body is essentially an extension of God?

A soul is necessary to transcend from one entire body to another (like a teeny weeny little seed).[/quote]

In that case you need to explain what you mean by soul. What does it do? Why does it need to transcend? Since we are ultimately all extensions of God, it would seem that the soul would be redundant because essentially we are all interconnected and part of God. What you are suggesting is that a soul is a distinct entity different from and not an extension of God.

Yes, i will reiterate, you are NOT God.
You are confusing yourself here. You appear to be suggesting that your toenail is YOU?

No. My toenail is not me. But that is because I have a form. God does not. It is not like there is a head part of God or a tail part of God or a part where there is more God and a part where there is less God. God is just everywhere and that is why we are extensions of it. So it cannot be as if there is more God outside me and less God inside me. So there can really be no way to distinguish an area that is not God. When you say I am not God, you are specifying an area where there is no God and that is a contradiction to the omnipresence of God. What we perceive as human forms is just our limited vision which makes us differentiate. But in actuality, it must be all God.

[surreptitious57]

Actually no they do not have to be asked or answered. Since we choose to want to ask and answer
them. There is no element of compulsion to do so other than to satisfy our curiosity. And so if we
were not naturally curious then we would not have any interest in wanting to ask or answer them

It is nice to be able to agree with you about some thing surreptitious. I have always been attracted to the metaphysical foundations of science
but not for a moment did I ever see this as a compulsion. I was simply satisfying an ordinary human curiosity to find answers to questions which intrigued me and the fact that this is also personally fulfilling is a perfectly natural consequence of achieving such a satisfaction

I agree with you one hundred per cent on this Leo. I do not have a family or a job. So I have to find other means to occupy my time that give meaning to my life and for me it is the pursuit of knowledge. I have always been interested in the written word and I spend much of my time learning through reading. I am interested in both the sciences and the humanities so I do not have one specific area of interest. Although my favoured ones are physics and history and philosophy. Now for me it is an end in itself rather than a means to an end. Even if I now think the
distinction is academic. So it all started five years ago after I became an atheist and this prompted my interest in science and particularly in
physics and from there developed into in all serious subject matter. If I was still a theist I may not have made that journey so I am glad I did

I am aware however that merely being interested in something does not automatically make one an expert and I do not claim to be one in any of these subjects and nor shall I ever be either. For I work within my limitations but over time I shall become more knowledgeable which is all I can realistically hope for and that bothers me not. And so through my limited understanding of our place in the grand scheme of things have come to realise that nothing really matters and also that death is the great liberator from all suffering. These two fundamental truths would probably not have been realised if I had not developed an interest in both science and philosophy so for that I must be grateful. But rather than make me feel depressed these truths have actually freed me and as a consequence am now as free as is possible to be. Both psychologically and philosophically
I have nothing to fear any more. I have made my peace with death and so every day which I live is one in which I can learn more. But ultimately I am just passing through so even if I live to be a hundred that is absolutely nothing compared to the infinity of time that I will be actually dead for

[attofishpi]

That raises the question why did God create extensions of ITself which were so stupid that they could not figure out the ten commandments themselves?

It didn't.

Then what did?

Nothing (God included) created 'extensions' to itself that would be so stupid that they could not figure out ten commandments for themselves.

A soul is necessary to transcend from one entire body to another (like a teeny weeny little seed).

In that case you need to explain what you mean by soul.

It was YOU who brought into the discussion the term "soul" here:-

If God is in every atom of me, what does the soul do? Is that an extra God in me somewhere?

So what do YOU mean by soul?

What does it do?

As i have stated, i would consider it akin to a teen-weeny seed - a tiny little piece of your now deceased body that is you, around which another material body can develop such as a human foetus.

Why does it need to transcend?

As i have stated, some people would prefer to exist beyond the one lifetime, and God has the ability to assist in this regard.

Since we are ultimately all extensions of God, it would seem that the soul would be redundant because essentially we are all interconnected and part of God.

No. The soul being the smallest representation of you within the ether is required for the above transcendent 'transplant'. How would you expect to be reborn and redevelop otherwise?

What you are suggesting is that a soul is a distinct entity different from and not an extension of God.

No. What i am suggesting is that the soul is a material part of existence, still an extension of God that is you, around which living flesh can redevelop on reincarnation.

When you say I am not God, you are specifying an area where there is no God and that is a contradiction to the omnipresence of God.

No, when i say YOU are not God, i am not saying you are not a part of God, the two are not mutually exclusive and there is no contradiction there. YOU are still an area where there IS God, but YOU are NOT God.

What we perceive as human forms is just our limited vision which makes us differentiate. But in actuality, it must be all God.

Ok, but you are atheist right?

[sthitapragya]

Nothing (God included) created 'extensions' to itself that would be so stupid that they could not figure out ten commandments for themselves.

Why would God do that?

So what do YOU mean by soul?

As far as I am concerned, the soul does not exist. God might or might not exist, the likelihood of God existing being as much as the likelihood of Santa existing, but if we are extensions of God, then the soul definitely does not exist or need to exist.

As i have stated, i would consider it akin to a teen-weeny seed - a tiny little piece of your now deceased body that is you, around which another material body can develop such as a human foetus.

Since the seed would be reincarnated in me from yet another body that died before mine was formed, that seed was never really mine, was it? So even if I have a soul, it is not really mine but something that is passed down from the previous body. It is just a foreigner which has taken residence in me.

As i have stated, some people would prefer to exist beyond the one lifetime, and God has the ability to assist in this regard.

But since I am already an extension of God, then that extension is immortal and does not need assistance in existing beyond this lifetime. It would pretty much be a property of the extension, wouldn't it?

No. The soul being the smallest representation of you within the ether is required for the above transcendent 'transplant'. How would you expect to be reborn and redevelop otherwise?

But if the transplant is happening in successive bodies, that transplanted part does not really belong to me, does it? It is just a foreigner which I choose to call my own soul when in reality, it is just a tourist.

No. What i am suggesting is that the soul is a material part of existence, still an extension of God that is you, around which living flesh can redevelop on reincarnation.

But if the whole of me is an extension of God, why do I need another extension of God that is me? And how is it me, when it has come from another body and will go to another body after I die?

No, when i say YOU are not God, i am not saying you are not a part of God, the two are not mutually exclusive and there is no contradiction there. YOU are still an area where there IS God, but YOU are NOT God.

That would mean that there are definite parts of me which are not God and only then would I not be God. I would have to be an entity distinct from God, and for that I would require parts which are definitely not God.

Ok, but you are atheist right?

Absolutely. If you take out God from the picture, all this complicated mess becomes very simple. I am me. I will die. Till I die I will live and try my best to thrive. So simple and uncomplicated. There is no need for a soul that is an extension of God but not of me and no need for me to be an extension of God but not God and no need for the soul to be a seed which is me but not really me and just a tourist and no headaches.

[attofishpi]

Nothing (God included) created 'extensions' to itself that would be so stupid that they could not figure out ten commandments for themselves.

Why would God do that?

Why would God do what? I just reiterated, God did nothing in relation to your statement.

As far as I am concerned, the soul does not exist. God might or might not exist, the likelihood of God existing being as much as the likelihood of Santa existing, but if we are extensions of God, then the soul definitely does not exist or need to exist.

Listen, if you are going to consider the likelihood of a santa existing being on par with that of God we really should not bother on this merri-go-round.

Since the seed would be reincarnated in me from yet another body that died before mine was formed, that seed was never really mine, was it? So even if I have a soul, it is not really mine but something that is passed down from the previous body. It is just a foreigner which has taken residence in me.

No, the seed IS you. You are reincarnated, perhaps even put on hold, until the point that insemination occurs into the body that this God entity sees fit for you.

But since I am already an extension of God, then that extension is immortal and does not need assistance in existing beyond this lifetime. It would pretty much be a property of the extension, wouldn't it?

No, its pretty obvious that our bodies have a lifespan where cellular degradation means we die. What you are suggesting is that we would all live ongoing in our current bodies, that we would reach a certain age and stop ageing??

But if the transplant is happening in successive bodies, that transplanted part does not really belong to me, does it? It is just a foreigner which I choose to call my own soul when in reality, it is just a tourist.

No. As i suggested above, your 'soul' perhaps is the thirdy party in insemination.

But if the whole of me is an extension of God, why do I need another extension of God that is me? And how is it me, when it has come from another body and will go to another body after I die?

Going around around in circles here, my above statements have clarified an answer to this.

No, when i say YOU are not God, i am not saying you are not a part of God, the two are not mutually exclusive and there is no contradiction there. YOU are still an area where there IS God, but YOU are NOT God.

That would mean that there are definite parts of me which are not God and only then would I not be God. I would have to be an entity distinct from God, and for that I would require parts which are definitely not God.

Your statement is illogical and in no way mirrors my very clear and concise statement.

Ok, but you are atheist right?

Absolutely. If you take out God from the picture, all this complicated mess becomes very simple. I am me. I will die. Till I die I will live and try my best to thrive. So simple and uncomplicated. There is no need for a soul that is an extension of God but not of me and no need for me to be an extension of God but not God and no need for the soul to be a seed which is me but not really me and just a tourist and no headaches.

The only complicated mess is your messy logic. Thinking a little deeper when it comes to comprehending what could quite conceivably constitute the true backbone to reality does not require the complicated messy illogic that you portray in your prior statement.

[sthitapragya]

No, the seed IS you. You are reincarnated, perhaps even put on hold, until the point that insemination occurs into the body that this God entity sees fit for you.

Let us stick to one thing at a time. You say the seed IS me. That would require the assumption that the seed is in me for the first time, which may or may not be true, since I have no recollection of any previous incarnation. But if this seed is a reincarnated seed. then for this body of mine, there is a seed which could very well have been anywhere, in any form, in any other body. That body would call the seed his or hers or its. I will call the seed mine. But really the seed is not me. In this body of Stithapragya I see the seed and say " this seed is me". But in reality the seed could very well have come from anyone else who believed the seed was his or hers or its. They are dead. The seed has moved on. But I will call it mine simply because it occupies my body.

If the characteristics of the seed are reflected in my body, that would mean that I am simply a refection of the seed or soul. This body of mine has no real identity of its own. Whatever I think or do is just a reflection of my soul. In that case I should not even have a name. I should just be "soul number 8492 incarnation 384".

I think I finally figured out what you mean by a soul. The extension of God in a body is what you call the soul. Is that correct?

[The Inglorious One]

I think I finally figured out what you mean by a soul. The extension of God in a body is what you call the soul. Is that correct?

There are a number of ideas for what constitutes the soul and, remarkably, this isn't too far off from the one I entertain (not that you really care).

The soul, as I understand it, is the offspring of a material mind and a fragment of God functioning in a space-time material environment. I may be wrong, of course; it's only a working theory until something better comes along.

[attofishpi]

No, the seed IS you. You are reincarnated, perhaps even put on hold, until the point that insemination occurs into the body that this God entity sees fit for you.

Let us stick to one thing at a time. You say the seed IS me. That would require the assumption that the seed is in me for the first time, which may or may not be true, since I have no recollection of any previous incarnation. But if this seed is a reincarnated seed. then for this body of mine, there is a seed which could very well have been anywhere, in any form, in any other body. That body would call the seed his or hers or its. I will call the seed mine. But really the seed is not me. In this body of Stithapragya I see the seed and say " this seed is me". But in reality the seed could very well have come from anyone else who believed the seed was his or hers or its. They are dead. The seed has moved on. But I will call it mine simply because it occupies my body.

Excellent! In your first points you have raised...is a point...that i have been considering at least since 2005 when the sage first introduced himself to me from the ether and answered a key question i had re reincarnation (but not this one). If my 'soul' 'seed' is the 'me' that transitions lifetime to lifetime via reincarnation, then at some point there surely must have been NO me in existence! ...no? As we appreciate things as being finite, there must always be a true beginning and end no?...so well done for bringing this point up!
Unfortunately from there you seem to have digressed from the point i am attempting to make re a soul or seed. Let me clarify again in another way that might make more sense.
First of course, you need to presume there is a God (pantheism\panentheism - either will suffice) YOU, your SOUL has not had a single lifetime as yet. Then two people have sexual intercourse, and YOU are born. During your 1st life, you are a benevolent little chap, you make some awesome choices and this God entity feels willing to allow you another life. You die of old age...the teen-weeny part of you which we would call your SOUL around which this God entity is able regrow - reincarnate another Earthly body, is perhaps held in some kind of quantum suspension until the right time, when this God entity who has already decided who your new parents are to be, 'injects' (for lack of a suitable word) your SOUL or seed as we have called it, into the womb of your new mother (of course as she screams in sexual ecstasy!)

If the characteristics of the seed are reflected in my body, that would mean that I am simply a refection of the seed or soul. This body of mine has no real identity of its own. Whatever I think or do is just a reflection of my soul. In that case I should not even have a name. I should just be "soul number 8492 incarnation 384".

I think if my above comment has managed to make some sense, that you would understand that your seed - soul - you, would inherit the DNA characteristics of your parents. I personally believe the 'soul' likely transfers more information about 'you' into the next lifetime, perhaps key characteristics that you have attained and discarded over the course of your previous life. There is a poster on this forum, i think it was Gingko that suggested more in relation to this as a possibility in relation to microtubules.

I think I finally figured out what you mean by a soul. The extension of God in a body is what you call the soul. Is that correct?

Yes!! Another way of putting it, a sub-entity of God, that is YOU.

[sthitapragya]

First of course, you need to presume there is a God (pantheism\panentheism - either will suffice) YOU, your SOUL has not had a single lifetime as yet. Then two people have sexual intercourse, and YOU are born. During your 1st life, you are a benevolent little chap, you make some awesome choices and this God entity feels willing to allow you another life. You die of old age...the teen-weeny part of you which we would call your SOUL around which this God entity is able regrow - reincarnate another Earthly body, is perhaps held in some kind of quantum suspension until the right time, when this God entity who has already decided who your new parents are to be, 'injects' (for lack of a suitable word) your SOUL or seed as we have called it, into the womb of your new mother (of course as she screams in sexual ecstasy!)

Why? Why did God create a soul in the first place to allow it to move from body to body provided the body did good deeds? What would be the problem if It allowed the soul to move from body to body even if it did bad deeds? And what makes the soul responsible for the deeds of the body? Is the soul the one controlling everything? What purpose would such reincarnation serve? What does God get out of it? What does the soul get out of it?

[attofishpi]

First of course, you need to presume there is a God (pantheism\panentheism - either will suffice) YOU, your SOUL has not had a single lifetime as yet. Then two people have sexual intercourse, and YOU are born. During your 1st life, you are a benevolent little chap, you make some awesome choices and this God entity feels willing to allow you another life. You die of old age...the teen-weeny part of you which we would call your SOUL around which this God entity is able regrow - reincarnate another Earthly body, is perhaps held in some kind of quantum suspension until the right time, when this God entity who has already decided who your new parents are to be, 'injects' (for lack of a suitable word) your SOUL or seed as we have called it, into the womb of your new mother (of course as she screams in sexual ecstasy!)

Why? Why did God create a soul in the first place to allow it to move from body to body provided the body did good deeds? What would be the problem if It allowed the soul to move from body to body even if it did bad deeds?

I believe 'God' does allow the body to have life again in another body even upon bad deeds. In fact, as i have stated on this forum at least over a year ago, after one of the beheadings that an Islamist committed to some poor chap i asked 'God' whether this Islamist was going to be reincarnated as the beast - the answer was 'right' with three heavy taps on my right shoulder. I guess it comes down to just how 'bad' the deeds are.

And what makes the soul responsible for the deeds of the body? Is the soul the one controlling everything? What purpose would such reincarnation serve? What does God get out of it? What does the soul get out of it?

When the sage first introduced himself to me from the ether, he answered some questions by tapping me on the right knee if i was 'right' and left knee i calculated with my feeble brain, as incorrect. The sage confirmed that night that after we have died we are reincarnated into the family deemed suitable based on how we have conducted ourselves.
I guess then if we've been idiots, we are likely to be born within a family not particularly willing or perhaps able instill much further intelligence into us. Thus, we might then continue down the nasty path of idiocy...to the point of making the ultimate poor choice. On the other hand, we might make wiser choices even with poor parental coaching, and in that case be placed within a family of more 'wisdom' and a better 'soul' path may grace our feet.
Lots of questions there. Not sure what 'God' gets out of it, why don't you ask it? By asking what does the soul get out of it, you are asking 'what do WE get out of it.'
You are still attempting to treat the soul and the body as separate entities. During ones life, they are the one and the same, it is only upon death that i am stating that they are separate.

[Lacewing]

The sage confirmed that night that after we have died we are reincarnated into the family deemed suitable based on how we have conducted ourselves. I guess then if we've been idiots, we are likely to be born within a family not particularly willing or perhaps able instill much further intelligence into us. Thus, we might then continue down the nasty path of idiocy...to the point of making the ultimate poor choice. On the other hand, we might make wiser choices even with poor parental coaching, and in that case be placed within a family of more 'wisdom' and a better 'soul' path may grace our feet.

I don't think it works like this. There are countless examples of extraordinary people coming from very dense and shattered families, just as there are wonderful families from which mass murderers come. If there is such a thing as reincarnation, then it would seem that a "collection of energy" (some might call a soul), is drawn into experiences and/or other energy that challenges or evolves or entertains it... and it does not rely on any particular setting that WE might assess as favorable or not. All settings can be used to one end or another. The energy uses/interacts in one way or another regardless. There are not any specific paths... or possibly even any specific values (as we like to assign in our world). Which is why our labels (such as theist and atheist) mean nothing in that regard. It is the energy behind everything that shows what it is engaged in regardless of any label we give it.

[attofishpi]

The sage confirmed that night that after we have died we are reincarnated into the family deemed suitable based on how we have conducted ourselves. I guess then if we've been idiots, we are likely to be born within a family not particularly willing or perhaps able instill much further intelligence into us. Thus, we might then continue down the nasty path of idiocy...to the point of making the ultimate poor choice. On the other hand, we might make wiser choices even with poor parental coaching, and in that case be placed within a family of more 'wisdom' and a better 'soul' path may grace our feet.

I don't think it works like this. There are countless examples of extraordinary people coming from very dense and shattered families, just as there are wonderful families from which mass murderers come.

Please re-read what I have written, and pay particular attention to the last sentence.