Philosophy Now Forum

alpha wrote:some of us can't just "have inner peace" about a nonsensical world

alpha wrote:why would the universe/god create people who don't wanna be here? why not just create the happy go lucky bunch?

Dalek Prime wrote:

henry quirk wrote:"shitty world"

Eye of the beholder.

Not exactly "sunshine, lollipops, rainbows..." either. Let's be real about this. Shit is just below our high wire balancing act. We choose to ignore it for our own sanity... Don't look down when climbing an aerial.

Greta wrote:The only times I have ever wished I didn't exist were during times of depression and sadness. I suspect that's what's going on here, as a few have suggested.
"depression" isn't always the case; unless one considers anyone who prefers nonexistence, depressed.

Certainly some people in developing countries have good reason to think it's better never to have existed. Still, great emotional pain can stem from ostensibly much smaller privations, ie. "first world problems". Sensitivities differ, as do levels of support, so if a person believes it is better for them not to have existed, then they are probably right. By the same token, those who love their lives are also right in thinking it's better to exist and, for them, premature death is definitely a harm.
there's one ginormous difference here, though; the ones who die "prematurely" (if they stop existing) aren't aware of it, as nonexistent equates to no consciousness.

We also should consider how depth and duration of feelings vary. The saddest cases are those whose emotions rise and fall like storms, who kill themselves during an intense downswing that would have soon blown over. It happened to a friend of my nephew's after a relationship breakup, aged in her early 20s. If only she could have understood how insignificant events during our 20s are in the context of a life once you're in your 50s.
i'm sorry for your loss. i do, however, believe that she's in a better place (regardless of where/what it is/isn't). certainly better than this rollercoaster hell. i'm 33, and i don't consider any of the suffering in all these years (whether during childhood, teens, twenties, thirties) to be insignificant.

alpha wrote: i meant, why would the universe/god create people who don't wanna be here? why not just create the happy go lucky bunch?

thedoc wrote:

alpha wrote: i meant, why would the universe/god create people who don't wanna be here? why not just create the happy go lucky bunch?

The Universe doesn't create people who are happy or miserable, it just creates people, being happy or not is your own affair. If you think the universe cares about your state of mind, you are more egocentric than is good for you. God is another question altogether, and people trying to define God, is an exercise in futility.

alpha wrote:
saying the universe just creates people ( pointlessly ) is pure speculation
( which may or may not be true ) and a completely unsubstantiated claim

The only times I have ever wished I didn't exist were during times of depression and sadness. I suspect that's what's going on here, as a few have suggested.

alpha wrote:"depression" isn't always the case; unless one considers anyone who prefers nonexistence, depressed.

Certainly some people in developing countries have good reason to think it's better never to have existed. Still, great emotional pain can stem from ostensibly much smaller privations, ie. "first world problems". Sensitivities differ, as do levels of support, so if a person believes it is better for them not to have existed, then they are probably right. By the same token, those who love their lives are also right in thinking it's better to exist and, for them, premature death is definitely a harm.

alpha wrote:there's one ginormous difference here, though; the ones who die "prematurely" (if they stop existing) aren't aware of it, as nonexistent equates to no consciousness.

We also should consider how depth and duration of feelings vary. The saddest cases are those whose emotions rise and fall like storms, who kill themselves during an intense downswing that would have soon blown over. It happened to a friend of my nephew's after a relationship breakup, aged in her early 20s. If only she could have understood how insignificant events during our 20s are in the context of a life once you're in your 50s.

alpha wrote:i'm sorry for your loss. i do, however, believe that she's in a better place (regardless of where/what it is/isn't). certainly better than this rollercoaster hell. i'm 33, and i don't consider any of the suffering in all these years (whether during childhood, teens, twenties, thirties) to be insignificant.

Greta wrote:

The only times I have ever wished I didn't exist were during times of depression and sadness. I suspect that's what's going on here, as a few have suggested.

alpha wrote:"depression" isn't always the case; unless one considers anyone who prefers nonexistence, depressed.

Of course I do. If you're not suffering a great deal, the absolute last thing you want is to not exist - you want to be alive, connected, curious about what happens next, interested in possibilities etc.

alpha wrote:i'm sure that you realize this is merely a view/belief, not a fact. facts require proof, which i doubt you can provide.

Certainly some people in developing countries have good reason to think it's better never to have existed. Still, great emotional pain can stem from ostensibly much smaller privations, ie. "first world problems". Sensitivities differ, as do levels of support, so if a person believes it is better for them not to have existed, then they are probably right. By the same token, those who love their lives are also right in thinking it's better to exist and, for them, premature death is definitely a harm.

alpha wrote:there's one ginormous difference here, though; the ones who die "prematurely" (if they stop existing) aren't aware of it, as nonexistent equates to no consciousness.

No matter which way you slice or dice it, I find it better to be alive, but I understand if people with harder circumstances and deeper wounds feel differently. If I was in their shoes I might feel as they do, or not. You never know until put into a situation.

alpha wrote:again, you're insisting that the philosophy of anyone who disputes you on this matter is simply a result of their feelings, and there's no way that it would be based on deductive reasoning.

I'm not wildly worried about after-death circumstances because, despite some very certain people, nobody has even the slightest idea whether any form of consciousness continues after death. Even if someone did work out the answer to existence, it would be one more competing ungrounded hypothesis to add to all the others.

alpha wrote:then we're in agreement, that death isn't a big problem

We also should consider how depth and duration of feelings vary. The saddest cases are those whose emotions rise and fall like storms, who kill themselves during an intense downswing that would have soon blown over. It happened to a friend of my nephew's after a relationship breakup, aged in her early 20s. If only she could have understood how insignificant events during our 20s are in the context of a life once you're in your 50s.

alpha wrote:i'm sorry for your loss. i do, however, believe that she's in a better place (regardless of where/what it is/isn't). certainly better than this rollercoaster hell. i'm 33, and i don't consider any of the suffering in all these years (whether during childhood, teens, twenties, thirties) to be insignificant.

Cheers. It was especially sad for her ex partner, who felt responsible. I don't know if she's in a better place but she could have waited another 50 years or so to go there. What's the rush? For me, a mix of support, hobbies, curiosity, cowardice, humour and determination "not to let the bastards get me down" helped me through my hardest times so far.

Suffering per se is not insignificant, but the causes can be more or less serious or trivial. Think of the mothers in refugee camps caring for babies born of rape (resulting in her being ostracised), and watching the infants or toddlers starving to death. What some people endure in life is beyond belief. The suffering of animals in the wild is similarly mind-bending. How do we weigh our social suffering against such tangible pain?

alpha wrote:i gotta disagree with the part about animals; most of what animals go through is nothing compared to what most people go through, simply due to the difference in the type or degree of consciousness between the two.

This comes down to relativity. Studies have found that those living in poverty in poor communities tend to be happier than those who are poor in a rich society. The former has support from those around them, the latter tend to be ostracised and treated like a "loser" (a term I seriously dislike).

alpha wrote:you do have a point, however, i maintain that it's not always a matter of emotions.

Since I Am God wrote:

alpha wrote:@ since; enough with this crap, already.

Then you write me your replies after posting this

alpha wrote:"depression" isn't always the case; unless one considers anyone who prefers nonexistence, depressed.

Greta wrote:Of course I do. If you're not suffering a great deal, the absolute last thing you want is to not exist - you want to be alive, connected, curious about what happens next, interested in possibilities etc.

alpha wrote:i'm sure that you realize this is merely a view/belief, not a fact. facts require proof, which i doubt you can provide.

No matter which way you slice or dice it, I find it better to be alive, but I understand if people with harder circumstances and deeper wounds feel differently. If I was in their shoes I might feel as they do, or not. You never know until put into a situation.

alpha wrote:again, you're insisting that the philosophy of anyone who disputes you on this matter is simply a result of their feelings, and there's no way that it would be based on deductive reasoning.

He says that after he (in my view successfully) demonstrated that even the happiest lives are in fact very bad, and life is full of suffering. However, what strikes me as contradictory is that he says that coming to existence is also very bad because you cannot avoid death and one cannot live as long as one desires.

Suffering per se is not insignificant, but the causes can be more or less serious or trivial. Think of the mothers in refugee camps caring for babies born of rape (resulting in her being ostracised), and watching the infants or toddlers starving to death. What some people endure in life is beyond belief. The suffering of animals in the wild is similarly mind-bending. How do we weigh our social suffering against such tangible pain?

alpha wrote:i gotta disagree with the part about animals; most of what animals go through is nothing compared to what most people go through, simply due to the difference in the type or degree of consciousness between the two.

How do you know what an intelligent social mammal feels like as it's being eaten slowly alive? We are not so different. The only reason we think other don't suffer as much is because their suffering doesn't much impact on our human lives.

Think of your suffering as a child - when your mentality was closer to that of another species than an adult human. Now think of how you feel when you in a fight-or-flight response. The brain switches off and you're in survival mode. "OMG I'm being eaten by a crocodile!". What is the difference between a human's suffering in the jaws of a croc and that of a zebra or small elephant? I'd say almost none. That is why we became civilised, to reduce our suffering. Damn good Idea, I think.

Yes, humans experience some kinds of emotional pain that other animals don't, but they might have others kinds of suffering that we don't.

even though we might not see eye to eye on certain things, i do appreciate your politeness.

take care, greta.

Greta wrote:I'll agree that death casts a shadow over our lives. It can be anything from a thrill or a relief to a shock or incredibly sad. Why should death negate all that comes before it? We might not be able to have everything, but we can have something. So we can have life, but not everlasting life. Maybe.

Greta wrote:How do you know it's non existence before and after? Do you have proof? Is it just because we are not aware of it?

I'm not arguing for a before/afterlife or reincarnation or recurrence, but the truth is nobody actually has a clue. So it would seem a major assumption to make without evidence about something as important as how much we value our lives. If one is make assumptions, why not make one that works in your favour? Of course, this doesn't apply if you enjoy melancholy. Do you enjoy melancholy? I've met many who do and dabbled myself plenty in my youth.