Is death a harm?

[Lacewing]

some of us can't just "have inner peace" about a nonsensical world

Have you ever had the experience of thinking something is one way... only to discover at another point that it's actually rather different?

I'm suggesting that the way we view the world is simply a certain perspective (at any given point in time)... and that there are other views which might reveal more or something else. I agree with you that the world seems nonsensical... but I think WE are a large part of making and viewing it that way. It's not just because of people who appear to be causing trouble or being stupid. It is, I'm guessing, something that has been building up in our human states for awhile... like a toxin or an infection. We have become like an infestation on the Earth. We are out of balance with nature. We are a bit mad. So I'm suggesting that we could back off and get ourselves out of the way in order to SEE MORE that's beyond ourselves, rather than aggressively imposing MORE of our madness to combat our madness (which we blame on everything other than ourselves).

why would the universe/god create people who don't wanna be here? why not just create the happy go lucky bunch?

Perhaps it wouldn't. Perhaps we DID want to come here -- and perhaps we KNEW it wasn't real or permanent, and so we signed up for a wild adventure, but part of the agreement was to completely forget that this isn't profoundly serious. So we come here and convincingly rant and rave about being here.

It truly is a difficult experience for these human forms. I've been working my whole life to get through one crazy-ass nightmare after another... while having a whole lot of fun along the way, and some amazing cosmic experiences and blessings while also trying to hang on to my sanity in the process of making sense of it all (which keeps evolving). I realize that everyone has a different vibrational trip -- and I can only speak from the experiences of my own journey. Maybe this world really is an inescapable hellhole for some. I tend to think that it is people themselves creating/viewing that illusion... but I don't know. There are so many examples of people who come through tremendous adversity and hardship with shining spirits. That's why I tend to believe that it's not the situations we are in... but our way of VIEWING everything. View can often change everything! When we think we're viewing everything correctly and from the only valid vantage point there is, we are surely standing in a corner!

It seems easier to say "everything sucks, so I can't be happy or effective". It's a convincing story (there's lots to support it)... but I'm not sure it's an absolute truth.

[alpha]

@ lacewing;

you've probably read some of my posts on the forum, about determinism. i might be "flexible" in certain areas, but not on the matter of determinism. logically, there can either be absolute causality, or randomness. if anyone can provide any third imaginable possibility, i'd be eternally grateful. based on either of them, there cannot be any accountability whatsoever. randomness can only lead to indeterminism, which can't entail responsibility. determinism is clear. obviously, i believe in the impossibility of the existence of any randomness anywhere, but even if it did, it still wouldn't solve the freewill, and accountability problem. without any freewill and accountability, what worthwhile meaning can there possibly be?

my position on determinism will never change, because the topic has been debated for thousands of years, with no one being able to provide any solid evidence supporting even the mere possibility (that it's not impossible) of freewill, so i'm not holding my breath,

[Greta]

The only times I have ever wished I didn't exist were during times of depression and sadness. I suspect that's what's going on here, as a few have suggested.

Certainly some people in developing countries have good reason to think it's better never to have existed. Still, great emotional pain can stem from ostensibly much smaller privations, ie. "first world problems". Sensitivities differ, as do levels of support, so if a person believes it is better for them not to have existed, then they are probably right. By the same token, those who love their lives are also right in thinking it's better to exist and, for them, premature death is definitely a harm.

We also should consider how depth and duration of feelings vary. The saddest cases are those whose emotions rise and fall like storms, who kill themselves during an intense downswing that would have soon blown over. It happened to a friend of my nephew's after a relationship breakup, aged in her early 20s. If only she could have understood how insignificant events during our 20s are in the context of a life once you're in your 50s.

[thedoc]

"shitty world"

Eye of the beholder.

Not exactly "sunshine, lollipops, rainbows..." either. Let's be real about this. Shit is just below our high wire balancing act. We choose to ignore it for our own sanity... Don't look down when climbing an aerial.

Why not, you might enjoy the view.

[alpha]

The only times I have ever wished I didn't exist were during times of depression and sadness. I suspect that's what's going on here, as a few have suggested.
"depression" isn't always the case; unless one considers anyone who prefers nonexistence, depressed.

Certainly some people in developing countries have good reason to think it's better never to have existed. Still, great emotional pain can stem from ostensibly much smaller privations, ie. "first world problems". Sensitivities differ, as do levels of support, so if a person believes it is better for them not to have existed, then they are probably right. By the same token, those who love their lives are also right in thinking it's better to exist and, for them, premature death is definitely a harm.
there's one ginormous difference here, though; the ones who die "prematurely" (if they stop existing) aren't aware of it, as nonexistent equates to no consciousness.

We also should consider how depth and duration of feelings vary. The saddest cases are those whose emotions rise and fall like storms, who kill themselves during an intense downswing that would have soon blown over. It happened to a friend of my nephew's after a relationship breakup, aged in her early 20s. If only she could have understood how insignificant events during our 20s are in the context of a life once you're in your 50s.
i'm sorry for your loss. i do, however, believe that she's in a better place (regardless of where/what it is/isn't). certainly better than this rollercoaster hell. i'm 33, and i don't consider any of the suffering in all these years (whether during childhood, teens, twenties, thirties) to be insignificant.

[thedoc]

i meant, why would the universe/god create people who don't wanna be here? why not just create the happy go lucky bunch?

The Universe doesn't create people who are happy or miserable, it just creates people, being happy or not is your own affair. If you think the universe cares about your state of mind, you are more egocentric than is good for you. God is another question altogether, and people trying to define God, is an exercise in futility.

[alpha]

i meant, why would the universe/god create people who don't wanna be here? why not just create the happy go lucky bunch?

The Universe doesn't create people who are happy or miserable, it just creates people, being happy or not is your own affair. If you think the universe cares about your state of mind, you are more egocentric than is good for you. God is another question altogether, and people trying to define God, is an exercise in futility.

if you don't understand a question, you need only say so. as you can see in the part you quoted, i said nothing about being happy or miserable. i'm talking about people who simply have a problem with existence itself. saying that the universe just creates people (pointlessly) is pure speculation (which may or may not be true), and a completely unsubstantiated claim. either way, people have a right to question their existence (without it making them too egocentric), even if your unsubstantiated claim is true.

[surreptitious57]

saying the universe just creates people ( pointlessly ) is pure speculation
( which may or may not be true ) and a completely unsubstantiated claim

Everything that is within the universe is a part of it and so then logically we are part of it too
But it is not a conscious entity as such so does not determine how or why we came into being

[Greta]

The only times I have ever wished I didn't exist were during times of depression and sadness. I suspect that's what's going on here, as a few have suggested.

"depression" isn't always the case; unless one considers anyone who prefers nonexistence, depressed.

Of course I do. If you're not suffering a great deal, the absolute last thing you want is to not exist - you want to be alive, connected, curious about what happens next, interested in possibilities etc.

Certainly some people in developing countries have good reason to think it's better never to have existed. Still, great emotional pain can stem from ostensibly much smaller privations, ie. "first world problems". Sensitivities differ, as do levels of support, so if a person believes it is better for them not to have existed, then they are probably right. By the same token, those who love their lives are also right in thinking it's better to exist and, for them, premature death is definitely a harm.

there's one ginormous difference here, though; the ones who die "prematurely" (if they stop existing) aren't aware of it, as nonexistent equates to no consciousness.

No matter which way you slice or dice it, I find it better to be alive, but I understand if people with harder circumstances and deeper wounds feel differently. If I was in their shoes I might feel as they do, or not. You never know until put into a situation.

I'm not wildly worried about after-death circumstances because, despite some very certain people, nobody has even the slightest idea whether any form of consciousness continues after death. Even if someone did work out the answer to existence, it would be one more competing ungrounded hypothesis to add to all the others.

We also should consider how depth and duration of feelings vary. The saddest cases are those whose emotions rise and fall like storms, who kill themselves during an intense downswing that would have soon blown over. It happened to a friend of my nephew's after a relationship breakup, aged in her early 20s. If only she could have understood how insignificant events during our 20s are in the context of a life once you're in your 50s.

i'm sorry for your loss. i do, however, believe that she's in a better place (regardless of where/what it is/isn't). certainly better than this rollercoaster hell. i'm 33, and i don't consider any of the suffering in all these years (whether during childhood, teens, twenties, thirties) to be insignificant.

Cheers. It was especially sad for her ex partner, who felt responsible. I don't know if she's in a better place but she could have waited another 50 years or so to go there. What's the rush? For me, a mix of support, hobbies, curiosity, cowardice, humour and determination "not to let the bastards get me down" helped me through my hardest times so far.

Suffering per se is not insignificant, but the causes can be more or less serious or trivial. Think of the mothers in refugee camps caring for babies born of rape (resulting in her being ostracised), and watching the infants or toddlers starving to death. What some people endure in life is beyond belief. The suffering of animals in the wild is similarly mind-bending. How do we weigh our social suffering against such tangible pain?

This comes down to relativity. Studies have found that those living in poverty in poor communities tend to be happier than those who are poor in a rich society. The former has support from those around them, the latter tend to be ostracised and treated like a "loser" (a term I seriously dislike).

[alpha]

The only times I have ever wished I didn't exist were during times of depression and sadness. I suspect that's what's going on here, as a few have suggested.

"depression" isn't always the case; unless one considers anyone who prefers nonexistence, depressed.

Of course I do. If you're not suffering a great deal, the absolute last thing you want is to not exist - you want to be alive, connected, curious about what happens next, interested in possibilities etc.

i'm sure that you realize this is merely a view/belief, not a fact. facts require proof, which i doubt you can provide.

Certainly some people in developing countries have good reason to think it's better never to have existed. Still, great emotional pain can stem from ostensibly much smaller privations, ie. "first world problems". Sensitivities differ, as do levels of support, so if a person believes it is better for them not to have existed, then they are probably right. By the same token, those who love their lives are also right in thinking it's better to exist and, for them, premature death is definitely a harm.

there's one ginormous difference here, though; the ones who die "prematurely" (if they stop existing) aren't aware of it, as nonexistent equates to no consciousness.

No matter which way you slice or dice it, I find it better to be alive, but I understand if people with harder circumstances and deeper wounds feel differently. If I was in their shoes I might feel as they do, or not. You never know until put into a situation.

again, you're insisting that the philosophy of anyone who disputes you on this matter is simply a result of their feelings, and there's no way that it would be based on deductive reasoning.

I'm not wildly worried about after-death circumstances because, despite some very certain people, nobody has even the slightest idea whether any form of consciousness continues after death. Even if someone did work out the answer to existence, it would be one more competing ungrounded hypothesis to add to all the others.

then we're in agreement, that death isn't a big problem

We also should consider how depth and duration of feelings vary. The saddest cases are those whose emotions rise and fall like storms, who kill themselves during an intense downswing that would have soon blown over. It happened to a friend of my nephew's after a relationship breakup, aged in her early 20s. If only she could have understood how insignificant events during our 20s are in the context of a life once you're in your 50s.

i'm sorry for your loss. i do, however, believe that she's in a better place (regardless of where/what it is/isn't). certainly better than this rollercoaster hell. i'm 33, and i don't consider any of the suffering in all these years (whether during childhood, teens, twenties, thirties) to be insignificant.

Cheers. It was especially sad for her ex partner, who felt responsible. I don't know if she's in a better place but she could have waited another 50 years or so to go there. What's the rush? For me, a mix of support, hobbies, curiosity, cowardice, humour and determination "not to let the bastards get me down" helped me through my hardest times so far.

Suffering per se is not insignificant, but the causes can be more or less serious or trivial. Think of the mothers in refugee camps caring for babies born of rape (resulting in her being ostracised), and watching the infants or toddlers starving to death. What some people endure in life is beyond belief. The suffering of animals in the wild is similarly mind-bending. How do we weigh our social suffering against such tangible pain?

i gotta disagree with the part about animals; most of what animals go through is nothing compared to what most people go through, simply due to the difference in the type or degree of consciousness between the two.

This comes down to relativity. Studies have found that those living in poverty in poor communities tend to be happier than those who are poor in a rich society. The former has support from those around them, the latter tend to be ostracised and treated like a "loser" (a term I seriously dislike).

you do have a point, however, i maintain that it's not always a matter of emotions.

even though we might not see eye to eye on certain things, i do appreciate your politeness.

take care, greta.

[alpha]

@ since; enough with this crap, already.

Then you write me your replies after posting this

replies to what? i was referring to the crazy and unrelated stuff you keep posting.

[Greta]

"depression" isn't always the case; unless one considers anyone who prefers nonexistence, depressed.

Of course I do. If you're not suffering a great deal, the absolute last thing you want is to not exist - you want to be alive, connected, curious about what happens next, interested in possibilities etc.

i'm sure that you realize this is merely a view/belief, not a fact. facts require proof, which i doubt you can provide.

Sure, this isn't science. I'm speaking for myself and from assumptions I've made about people I know based on what they say and do. All anecdotal. I'd think it the most usual view. There'd be no point posting Benetar's views if they were mainstream. My impressions are that many people (and other species) lust for life without ever questioning it. Chances are that the leaders of nations and corporations are such people.

No matter which way you slice or dice it, I find it better to be alive, but I understand if people with harder circumstances and deeper wounds feel differently. If I was in their shoes I might feel as they do, or not. You never know until put into a situation.

again, you're insisting that the philosophy of anyone who disputes you on this matter is simply a result of their feelings, and there's no way that it would be based on deductive reasoning.

Not insisting but, yes, I was saying that. I just don't think life is pointless. Think of what the Earth was like during the late bombardment and now think of what it is today. Things are getting better, but the progress is not constant. Sometimes there's backward steps, but the overall trend has clearly been progressive over billions of years.

Re: your reasoning in the OP:

He says that after he (in my view successfully) demonstrated that even the happiest lives are in fact very bad, and life is full of suffering. However, what strikes me as contradictory is that he says that coming to existence is also very bad because you cannot avoid death and one cannot live as long as one desires.

Not much deductive reasoning there either, alph. The happiest lives are "very bad"? You surely see how contestable that idea is. I have a good life. I imagine that the happiest lives must be very good. Incredibly and enviably good, in fact. Bastards.

I'll agree that death casts a shadow over our lives. It can be anything from a thrill or a relief to a shock or incredibly sad. Why should death negate all that comes before it? We might not be able to have everything, but we can have something. So we can have life, but not everlasting life. Maybe.

Suffering per se is not insignificant, but the causes can be more or less serious or trivial. Think of the mothers in refugee camps caring for babies born of rape (resulting in her being ostracised), and watching the infants or toddlers starving to death. What some people endure in life is beyond belief. The suffering of animals in the wild is similarly mind-bending. How do we weigh our social suffering against such tangible pain?

i gotta disagree with the part about animals; most of what animals go through is nothing compared to what most people go through, simply due to the difference in the type or degree of consciousness between the two.

How do you know what an intelligent social mammal feels like as it's being eaten slowly alive? We are not so different. The only reason we think other don't suffer as much is because their suffering doesn't much impact on our human lives.

Think of your suffering as a child - when your mentality was closer to that of another species than an adult human. Now think of how you feel when you in a fight-or-flight response. The brain switches off and you're in survival mode. "OMG I'm being eaten by a crocodile!". What is the difference between a human's suffering in the jaws of a croc and that of a zebra or small elephant? I'd say almost none. That is why we became civilised, to reduce our suffering. Damn good Idea, I think.

Yes, humans experience some kinds of emotional pain that other animals don't, but they might have others kinds of suffering that we don't.

even though we might not see eye to eye on certain things, i do appreciate your politeness.

take care, greta.

Cheers. I'm fairly new here and I don't understand the culture. There's a lot of hostility. Very popcorn-y :)

[alpha]

I'll agree that death casts a shadow over our lives. It can be anything from a thrill or a relief to a shock or incredibly sad. Why should death negate all that comes before it? We might not be able to have everything, but we can have something. So we can have life, but not everlasting life. Maybe.

so called life, is preceded and and followed (presumably) by nonexistence, if that tiny middle part was also nonexistent, it would've been one straight line; much more efficient, and less pointless.

[Greta]

How do you know it's non existence before and after? Do you have proof? Is it just because we are not aware of it?

I'm not arguing for a before/afterlife or reincarnation or recurrence, but the truth is nobody actually has a clue. So it would seem a major assumption to make without evidence about something as important as how much we value our lives. If one is make assumptions, why not make one that works in your favour? Of course, this doesn't apply if you enjoy melancholy. Do you enjoy melancholy? I've met many who do and dabbled myself plenty in my youth.

Why the efficiency drive? Why should existence be a tidy and efficient straight line? Life is messy and crazed. I think it will tidy up in time. If not, oh well.

[alpha]

How do you know it's non existence before and after? Do you have proof? Is it just because we are not aware of it?

I'm not arguing for a before/afterlife or reincarnation or recurrence, but the truth is nobody actually has a clue. So it would seem a major assumption to make without evidence about something as important as how much we value our lives. If one is make assumptions, why not make one that works in your favour? Of course, this doesn't apply if you enjoy melancholy. Do you enjoy melancholy? I've met many who do and dabbled myself plenty in my youth.

i don't enjoy melancholy. i thought there was a consensus (more or less) that we aren't infinitely old. my premise is that nonexistence is the default state, unless proven otherwise. if we existed, but weren't aware of it (for which you have no proof, also), that's close enough to nonexistence. consciousness is the main issue. as to whether or not there's an afterlife, idk, just like you don't, but again, i consider nonexistence (or at least unconsciousness/unawareness) to be the default state, unless proven otherwise.