Why I became a vegetarian...

Abortion, euthanasia, genetic engineering, Just War theory and other such hot topics.

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Ned
Posts: 675
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:56 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Ned »

duszek wrote:
Ned wrote:Forums

I have done the science and the art,
I have had my fling with humanity,
I have been smart and dumb and then smart again,
I have looked into, and beyond, eternity.
In all these wanderings, in all these years,
I never understood the final, missing piece:
If I am out of hope and beyond despair,
why do I still, stubbornly, obtusely think
that I communicate
when talking to nuts
on my internet link?

:lol:
This puzzle is a challenge. Solving it could be an important step on your way to "Knowing thyself".
I have tried and tried and tried!!!

Here is the answer! :lol:

Why?

Why am I trying to say
what so many already said
so much better,
so many times?
Our world is doomed,
and we, who can see it,
are not heard -
we must be mute…
…or the others all deaf.

A truth,
a conviction
needs decades of searching,
thinking, analyzing
to form, crystallize
into knowledge.
You can’t share it
with anyone
who has not traveled
the same path…
…and yet, we try.

Maybe we write
for each other,
to help us feel
we’re not alone,
there are others, our kind,
almost another species
dispersed on the planet…
…as if we were expelled
from our homeland,
for some horrible crime.

We sing ballads,
spin yarn,
write poems, plays, essays,
philosophize
from soap boxes
or thunder from pulpits,
trying to be heard,
to set their souls on fire…
…all we ever do is:
preach to the choir.
David Handeye
Posts: 457
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:39 pm
Location: Italia

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by David Handeye »

Ned wrote:PS. As far as the B12 issue is considered, I have been taking B12 supplements regularly as advised by my family doctor. You have to let it dissolve under your tongue because stomach acid neutralizes it.

As I said, there are substitutes and solutions to every objection I have ever heard.

As I stated before, I have been a vegetarian for 40 years and I am on the peak of health at my age of 72.
You are 72? I don't believe you are 72,
Ned wrote:Forums

I have done the science and the art,
I have had my fling with humanity,
I have been smart and dumb and then smart again,
I have looked into, and beyond, eternity.
In all these wanderings, in all these years,
I never understood the final, missing piece:
If I am out of hope and beyond despair,
why do I still, stubbornly, obtusely think
that I communicate
when talking to nuts
on my internet link?

:lol:
one of 72 couldn't write such posts. If you are 72 then Bill Wiltrack is the president of the United States
duszek
Posts: 2342
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:27 pm
Location: Thin Air

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by duszek »

Why don´t big animals (elephants, apes, bizons) need vitamine B 12, iron etc ? They are strong and could get a prey easily but they survive without it.
Ned
Posts: 675
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:56 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Ned »

Wyman wrote: My point was that I can't see how logical consistency enters into ethical debates. The core values are not arrived at logically (i.e. 'I believe in God', or 'I believe killing animals is wrong'). Why then are people troubled by inconsistency in applying those values?
You have a good point, Wyman, values are subjective, however, they can be arrived at logically from clearly defined premises.

Once I attempted to do that with some success.

Here is a short version (quoted from my book: "Humane Physics")

Resolving conflicting loyalties

The suggestions I am making in this chapter should be read as guidelines that I have found useful in my own life. No one can follow them with absolute perfection, because human beings have conflicting motivations: what Edward O. Wilson called individual-level selection and group-level selection in our evolutionary process (The Meaning of Human Existence). The result of individual-level evolutionary selection predisposes us to favour our own and our progeny’s survival over the interests of our group. The result of the group-level evolutionary selection motivates us to serve the interests of the various groups we are part of. As he so eloquently states:

“We are unlikely to yield completely to either force as the ideal solution to our social and political turmoil. To give in completely to the instinctual urgings born from individual selection would be to dissolve society. At the opposite extreme, to surrender to the urgings from group selection would turn us into angelic robots - the outsized equivalents of ants.”

With these caveats, I will attempt to define human morality in a logical and systematic way that should serve as compass for future scientists when they struggle with the conflicting loyalties that they will unavoidably encounter.

The human species is a tribal species, just like wolves and gorillas. We depend on one another for survival. The question of loyalty to our tribe often conflicts with our other loyalties: to family, humanity, religion, etc.

The relationship of our social concepts can be seen as follows:

1. We have evolved with nearly identical needs for survival.

2. Our nearly identical needs created nearly identical values.

3. Our nearly identical values created a set of ethical rules (dos and don’ts)

4. Our dependence on one another created a need for loyalty to our ethical rules.

5. Our loyalty to ethical rules created an unwritten social contract apart from the laws of the land as defined by the ruling elite. Those laws are specific to one culture or one nation-state. The unwritten social contract recognizing human interdependence is universal. All cultures through history have known that murder and theft are wrong. Awareness of the rules of the social contract is called our ‘conscience’, or knowing right from wrong. This universal concept of ‘right conduct’ is called morality.

6. The unwritten social contract created standards of socially acceptable behaviour. Any act or attitude that enhances the chances of survival for the group is good. Any act or attitude that harms the chances of survival for the group is bad. Since individual members accept the protection and nourishment of the tribe, the only moral conduct is to seek individual survival/welfare only through the survival/welfare of the tribe. If the two are in conflict, the needs of the tribe come first. We call those who consistently demonstrate their willingness to defend the tribe, even at great personal sacrifice, ‘heroes’. Those who betray the tribe we call ‘traitors’ and treason is usually punishable by death or expulsion.

7. In our complicated world, individuals have simultaneous and often conflicting memberships in many groups: immediate family, extended family, friends, neighbourhood, school, work, religious denomination, political party, social organizations, nation, race, gender, species and life.

8. Resolving conflicts requires prioritizing our loyalties.

9. Since a sub-group accepts the protection and nourishment of the larger group of which it is a part, the only moral conduct is to seek survival/welfare of the sub-group ONLY through the survival/welfare of the containing group. If the two are in conflict, the needs of the containing group come first.

10. In this sense, our ultimate loyalty should be to life. Life on this planet is the ultimate containing group. We are all part of it. It nourishes us all. If we betray it, if we destroy it, we destroy ourselves.
Melchior
Posts: 839
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:20 pm

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Melchior »

duszek wrote:Why don´t big animals (elephants, apes, bizons) need vitamine B 12, iron etc ? They are strong and could get a prey easily but they survive without it.

They are adapted to the environment where they live. Both groups eat enormous amounts of vegetation to extract the nutritional value from the low-nutritional value plants. None of those animals is adapted to catching prey. Even gorillas would have trouble catching much, aside from small monkeys perhaps. Chimps do that.
Last edited by Melchior on Mon May 04, 2015 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Melchior
Posts: 839
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:20 pm

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Melchior »

To Ned:

Food choice is of no moral consequence whatever. I love spinach, Brussels sprouts, eggplant, asparagus, but also steak, lamb, pork, chicken, etc.
Last edited by Melchior on Mon May 04, 2015 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
duszek
Posts: 2342
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:27 pm
Location: Thin Air

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by duszek »

David Handeye wrote:
Ned wrote:PS. As far as the B12 issue is considered, I have been taking B12 supplements regularly as advised by my family doctor. You have to let it dissolve under your tongue because stomach acid neutralizes it.

As I said, there are substitutes and solutions to every objection I have ever heard.

As I stated before, I have been a vegetarian for 40 years and I am on the peak of health at my age of 72.
You are 72? I don't believe you are 72,
Ned wrote:Forums

I have done the science and the art,
I have had my fling with humanity,
I have been smart and dumb and then smart again,
I have looked into, and beyond, eternity.
In all these wanderings, in all these years,
I never understood the final, missing piece:
If I am out of hope and beyond despair,
why do I still, stubbornly, obtusely think
that I communicate
when talking to nuts
on my internet link?

:lol:
one of 72 couldn't write such posts. If you are 72 then Bill Wiltrack is the president of the United States
E perché no ? Spieghicelo !

Does Ned sound like a youth or like an immature person ? What makes you think so ?
duszek
Posts: 2342
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:27 pm
Location: Thin Air

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by duszek »

Melchior wrote:
duszek wrote:Why don´t big animals (elephants, apes, bizons) need vitamine B 12, iron etc ? They are strong and could get a prey easily but they survive without it.

They are adapted to the environment where they live. Both groups eat enormous amounts of vegetation to extract the nutritional value from they. None of those animals is adapted to catching prey. Even gorillas would have trouble catching much, aside from small monkeys perhaps. Chimps do that.
So why can´t we adapt to the environment and extract the nutritional value from plants ?
Humanity adapted to bread, to milk, to processed foods.
We could adapt anew.
Ned
Posts: 675
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:56 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Ned »

David Handeye wrote: You are 72? I don't believe you are 72,
Another specimen to my ignore list (he called me a liar without any justification).

You guys can start a party in my ignore list, now there is enough of you of the same stripe.

Have fun!
User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8360
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Melchior wrote: We are not 'afraid' of vegetarianism. What we detest is the falsehoods, stupid, inane, illogical arguments brought forth by vegetarians. We detest the 'holier than thou' attitude so many vegetarians adopt. Vegetarianism is its own punishment. You're just too fucking stupid to discuss it. Do you see us going around saying 'look at me, I eat meat'? Do ya, punk?

This is right on the money.
Melchior
Posts: 839
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:20 pm

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Melchior »

duszek wrote:
Melchior wrote:
duszek wrote:Why don´t big animals (elephants, apes, bizons) need vitamine B 12, iron etc ? They are strong and could get a prey easily but they survive without it.

They are adapted to the environment where they live. Both groups eat enormous amounts of vegetation to extract the nutritional value from they. None of those animals is adapted to catching prey. Even gorillas would have trouble catching much, aside from small monkeys perhaps. Chimps do that.
So why can´t we adapt to the environment and extract the nutritional value from plants ?
Humanity adapted to bread, to milk, to processed foods.
We could adapt anew.
Duh, it takes millions of years, dumbass! Unless you want to eat dung....

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/animal

"Non-human primates typically eat small amounts of eggs, insects, and small vertebrates and/or soil. Gorillas, possibly the closest to vegan of all the species closely related to humans, eat insects and sometimes feces."

Also, note this:

"Cobalt is Necessary for Bacterial Production of B12

The availability of B12 for animals who rely on bacterial synthesis of B12 (rather than getting it from animal foods) is dependent on cobalt levels in the soil. Citing an article from the Annals of the New York Academy of Science (1964;112:735-55), Crane et al. (8) point out that some soils in Australia, New Zealand, Britain, Canada, Ireland, Germany, Holland, Kenya, Poland, South Africa, Sweden, Russia, and the USA have insufficient cobalt for adequate B12 formation. They state, "This is a major concern of ours because vegans commonly seem to hold to the concept that all essential nutrients will be supported in foods from non-animal sources. They fail to realize that plants can grow readily in soil that is too low in cobalt for bacterial action to supply animals with sufficient B12."
Last edited by Melchior on Mon May 04, 2015 6:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.
David Handeye
Posts: 457
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:39 pm
Location: Italia

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by David Handeye »

duszek wrote: E perché no ? Spieghicelo !

Does Ned sound like a youth or like an immature person ? What makes you think so ?
Wow, well done duszek :wink:
Yes, Ned sounds like a youth to me, not immature, but very clever.
David Handeye
Posts: 457
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:39 pm
Location: Italia

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by David Handeye »

I correct myself, I thought he was clever.
Ned
Posts: 675
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:56 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Ned »

duszek wrote: Does Ned sound like a youth or like an immature person ? What makes you think so ?
Check out the author's bio at the following address (I just love plugging my books any chance I have):

http://www.amazon.com/Humane-Physics-st ... ne+physics

Another you can look at (and BUY!):

http://www.amazon.com/The-Prism-my-Mind ... 169&sr=8-1

However, I wish I was still a youth -- I was happier then (knowing things doesn't help in that regard), never mind the aching joints! :wink:

Allow me to illustrate:

Aging

Age creeps up on me,
stealing me blind,
now I need glasses;
driving on the road
I am so slow,
every old lady passes.

My joints are shot
my hearing’s so bad
you have to say
everything twice.
My hair’s getting thin,
but thrives in the nose:
this is not very nice.

My elbow hardly bends,
my fingers always ache,
don’t even mention my neck!
I don’t run any more,
shuffle is more likely…
…admit it: I am an old wreck.

It isn’t so bad,
when I consider:
I’m not really losing -

because, as I age,
with less and less ‘can-do’
less and less seems worth while doing.


:lol:
duszek
Posts: 2342
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:27 pm
Location: Thin Air

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by duszek »

And what is worth while doing ?
Talking to people on a forum ?
Thinking things over ?
Writing poems about life ?
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