Where was 'god' before 'he' created the universe?

[Ned]

So how would you answer the question I asked in the challenge I posted above?

Suppose, for argument's sake, that you grew up in a world where nobody ever talked about gods or supernatural of any kind. Suppose you had a totally secular education: you learned about nature, physics, scientific facts, technology, productive skills, social organization, project management, etc. No priests, no churches, no bibles, no superstition, no Santa Clauses, no tooth fairies - nothing but observable reality. Would you have ever thought of anything outside this? What, if anything, would have made you think that there might be something outside of your experience?"

[thedoc]

Richard Rohr is a Franciscan monk who writes a daily meditation that I receive via e-mail. In one of his meditations he stated that we didn't need to have all the answers or have it all figured out by the end, we should just keep trying. This was a bit of a revelation and it allowed my to have a much more relaxed attitude toward my religious beliefs. I can accept that there are questions that I answer by saying, I just don't know.

[Ned]

doc, this doesn't answer the question I quoted above!

Can you imagine growing up in that world?

Are you sure that you know anything from personal experience, or you just accepted what was handed down to you by your culture?

Have you had any personal experience that was uniquely yours, not inspired by the myths you have been fed from early childhood?

What is it that you know to be true for a fact?

[thedoc]

So how would you answer the question I asked in the challenge I posted above?

Suppose, for argument's sake, that you grew up in a world where nobody ever talked about gods or supernatural of any kind. Suppose you had a totally secular education: you learned about nature, physics, scientific facts, technology, productive skills, social organization, project management, etc. No priests, no churches, no bibles, no superstition, no Santa Clauses, no tooth fairies - nothing but observable reality. Would you have ever thought of anything outside this? What, if anything, would have made you think that there might be something outside of your experience?"

That is an interesting speculation and I don't believe I can really answer it because i grew up in a Lutheran background. I will say that after studying many of those subjects, and being exposed to many of the popular science programs, I have often had the feeling that there was much that science didn't and couldn't explain. So it is possible that I might have come to some idea of God, or something like God. And by saying No priests, no churches, no bibles, no superstition, no Santa Clauses, no tooth fairies you have eliminated a lot of human culture. I can't help thinking that something similar would have been invented just like it. I do wonder what was the first religion, or idea that humans had, that developed into our current concept of religion. I can't help thinking that if I knew that, I would have a better understanding of God. I would think that the first ideas would be more pure and true, and less corrupted by man's reinterpretation of it over the centuries.

[Ned]

You didn't answer 3 of the four questions I asked:

Are you sure that you know anything from personal experience, or you just accepted what was handed down to you by your culture?

Have you had any personal experience that was uniquely yours, not inspired by the myths you have been fed from early childhood?

What is it that you know to be true for a fact?

[thedoc]

doc, this doesn't answer the question I quoted above!

Can you imagine growing up in that world?

Are you sure that you know anything from personal experience, or you just accepted what was handed down to you by your culture?

Have you had any personal experience that was uniquely yours, not inspired by the myths you have been fed from early childhood?

What is it that you know to be true for a fact?

We seem to be posting past each other, my actual answer followed your post, but the short answer is No, I can't imagine it, or at least it is very difficult.

I did relate one experience, perhaps in another thread? where I was a witness to an event that I can only attribute to the presence of the Holy Spirit, and if the Holy Spirit exists, then God as well.

[Ned]

Can you tell me what the holy spirit is?

How do you know that there is such a thing in the universe?

The name you used seems to come straight from the bible.

Do you have any other source of your 'knowledge' of this 'holy spirit'?

No holy spirit is ever mentioned in the Islamic religion. How do you know that their religion is false and yours is true?

[thedoc]

Can you tell me what the holy spirit is?

I can only say that the Holy Spirit is an aspect of God that can interact with people.

How do you know that there is such a thing in the universe?

The name you used seems to come straight from the bible.

The event that I witnessed, and yes that term comes from the bible, it's as good a name as any.

Do you have any other source of your 'knowledge' of this 'holy spirit'?

Only my own experience and the teachings of my religion.

No holy spirit is ever mentioned in the Islamic religion. How do you know that their religion is false and yours is true?

I don't claim that any religion is false or true, I suspect that most are incomplete, and I don't really worry too much about the apparent contradictions.

[Ned]

doc, thank you for the honest and specific answers, they are extremely helpful for me while writing my book.

My suspicion is that you maintain your faith because it makes you feel good.

The mystery of faith has been partially illuminated.

[thedoc]

doc, thank you for the honest and specific answers, they are extremely helpful for me while writing my book.

My suspicion is that you maintain your faith because it makes you feel good.

The mystery of faith has been partially illuminated.

One of the things about a religion is that it is a mystery, it is possible that is some of the appeal for some people.

Yes there are several aspects of my faith that make me feel good, it stimulates my thinking when I am in conversation with others, even those who disagree with me, though I am much more careful what I say. And I enjoy the fellowship of other religious people, mostly the more moderate ones both in a religion and many agnostics and atheists. It is sometimes quite unpleasant to be around militant theists or atheists, (those are the ones who insist that you believe what they do, or there is something wrong with you).

[thedoc]

doc, thank you for the honest and specific answers, they are extremely helpful for me while writing my book.

I should caution you about my answers, they are in no way typical of other Christians, but they are my unique spin on the subject.

[Ned]

I have been doing these survey threads on different forums for a while and you would be surprised how often I get similar answers.

To summarize:

- You can't (or won't) define the key words you use (such as 'god' and 'holy spirit') in any meaningful way.
- You don't seem to have any valid reason to assume that god exists
- You mentioned one personal experience that convinced you about the 'holy spirit' that you can't describe
- You don't know if you would ever think of god if you grew up in a 100% rational, secular society
- Your only source of 'knowledge' seems to be the teaching of your church, of your parents and your religious culture
- The contradiction between god's assumed benevolence and the immeasurable pain and suffering in the world (human and animal) doesn't shake your faith
-You maintain your faith because it makes you feel good, culturally accepted, and it is comfortable not to think too deeply and too critically
- You don't seem to have a need to make sure that your faith is grounded in reality or in fantasy

Have I covered it well enough?

Just five more questions:

Is there any evidence that could convince you that your faith is based on fantasy?
What would this evidence look like?
Is there anything in the universe that could shake your faith, or it is too deeply entrenched in your mind to consider any change?
Have you ever had any doubt in your life?
If you have -- how did you resolve it?

[ReliStuPhD]

My suspicion is that you maintain your faith because it makes you feel good.

Perhaps that's being uncharitable? That is, if I were to say that my suspicion is that you don't maintain your faith because it (not maintaining it) makes you feel good, how would you respond? Might you not say "Well, no. I don't maintain my faith because I feel that's the best avenue to truth." (I know, my phrasing's coming out clunky isn't it?) Perhaps the charitable response to thedoc (and other "believers") is that they maintain their faith because they believe it's true. And perhaps even more than being charitable, that would actually be accurate. Put differently, regardless of whether their faith is true, I've met very few who held it because of "warm fuzzies" and very, many who held it because it was true. Now perhaps the reason they maintain their faith is true is because of some subconscious "good feeling," but I think that's still different from your initial statement, which suggests the truth of these propositions is less important than how they make the believer feel.

(Hopefully that's made sense.)

[Ned]

Now perhaps the reason they maintain their faith is true is because of some subconscious "good feeling,"

Yes, that is exactly what I meant. Very few people deliberately delude themselves, just so they would feel good, ergo they are convinced that their faith is based on truth. However, the psychological motivation is always there and I have seen it operate in most people I have engaged in this dialogue.

[thedoc]

I have been doing these survey threads on different forums for a while and you would be surprised how often I get similar answers.
To summarize:
- You can't (or won't) define the key words you use (such as 'god' and 'holy spirit') in any meaningful way.

I would say that considering everything else, my answer would probably be inadequate. And that is the reason for my reluctance to give firm answers to this.

- You don't seem to have any valid reason to assume that god exists

Apart from the experience I mentioned.

- You mentioned one personal experience that convinced you about the 'holy spirit' that you can't describe

I could describe it, but I don't see the point since it was for those present, and it happened a long time ago. If you really want, I will describe it for you as best I can.

- You don't know if you would ever think of god if you grew up in a 100% rational, secular society
- Your only source of 'knowledge' seems to be the teaching of your church, of your parents and your religious culture

True to both.

- The contradiction between god's assumed benevolence and the immeasurable pain and suffering in the world (human and animal) doesn't shake your faith

The immeasurable pain and suffering in the world is due to human activity, since people are free to do bad things if they choose, and God does not intervene and prevent it, due to Gods promise to not interfere unless requested to do so.

-You maintain your faith because it makes you feel good, culturally accepted, and it is comfortable not to think too deeply and too critically

Actually I do think critically about it, I just haven't come to very many firm conclusions.

- You don't seem to have a need to make sure that your faith is grounded in reality or in fantasy

I am satisfied that it is grounded in reality.

Have I covered it well enough?

Just five more questions:

Is there any evidence that could convince you that your faith is based on fantasy?
What would this evidence look like?
Is there anything in the universe that could shake your faith, or it is too deeply entrenched in your mind to consider any change?

I really don't know what could shake my faith or change my mind.

Have you ever had any doubt in your life?
If you have -- how did you resolve it?

I have had doubts and was reading a lot of Buddhism, and the similarities that I found led me to go back to the church, the one I had attended before. I saw no reason to change.