~ The Truth is a Hard Pill to Swallow ~

[Bill Wiltrack]

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If...




What if the CIA, by torturing someone, or a few individuals...offering no gain, you put ALL American people potentially at risk?


...including those ones precious to you.





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[SpheresOfBalance]

"you put yourself on a pedestal as being all about 'freedom' and enlightenment"

Er, when did I ever drone on (here, or in any forum) about 'freedom' or 'enlightenment'?

You may be mistaking me for some other jackass.

#

"If you are torturing people (which you are) then you are no better than the Inquisition."

Mebbe. If, however, I can secure the life of one precious to me by way of torturing someone, then -- fuck you -- that's exactly what I'll do.

If -- as my proxy -- the CIA can secure the lives of other Americans (a group which may include those precious to me) by way of torturing someone, then -- fuck you --that exactly what I want them to do.

HQ, I'm sorry man, but you seem to exude quite a lot of fear. No worries because everyone does to some degree or another. But wow, maybe it's the effects of hiding in the woods! How alone are you out there anyway? Do you have a beard that puts the members of ZZ Top to shame? You know Rip Van Winkle long or maybe Father Time, like down to your knees, the epitome of hermitry. No I'm not really trying to be an ass here, I'm just wondering how alone you are. You're not like Theodore John "Ted" Kaczynski are you, living in a 10 foot square cabin? No wait a minute, he was a genius, never mind. <-Just kidding you buddy, now it's your turn! For the sake of levity, go for it! Bust my chops. The "new" me can take it, as well as dish out, humor that is. You can call me anything you want, except late for dinner.

[SpheresOfBalance]

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If...




What if the CIA, by torturing someone, or a few individuals...offering no gain, you put ALL American people potentially at risk?


...including those ones precious to you.





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Good point Bill, many do not consider the inverse view of their manifesto.

[henry quirk]

"you seem to exude quite a lot of fear"

HA!

As you like.

#

"How alone are you out there anyway?"

Don't know where you get your information. I've never claimed to be hiding in the woods.

#

"Bust my chops."

Beyond telling you to 'get bent', you aren't worth the trouble.

*shrug*

[henry quirk]

"What if the CIA, by torturing someone, or a few individuals...offering no gain, you put ALL American people potentially at risk?"

Living is 'risk'.

Take some, Bill

[Arising_uk]

"This is why I think, what's been done has pretty much been a useless exercise"

If you can believe the report, then -- yeah -- it was pointless. ...

Haven't read the report as I think it probably old news. Am interested in these redactions tho' as I think them covering-up the evidence that our govt and secret services lied in a report ten years ago.

Thing is: the report is, I think, the product of biased folks who say torture is never permissible.

Doubt it, just another committee to salve the American view of themselves but zilch will change, just as it obviously didn't after, Vietnam, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Columbia, et al.

Again: some folks say valuable information was obtained by way of Gitmo torture, and some folks say nuthin' of value came from the Gitmo torture.

Pick your poison.

My take is simple, if we're going to claim to be fighting a moral 'war' then we have to be the moral ones and if that means some of us die as collateral damage then thats the price we must each pay for such a morality. Pragmatically and practically I see no great advantage in torturing for information in such general circumstances as it makes a few stupid assumptions I think, one, it assumes that our opponents are stupid and won't change their plans and operating procedures in the light of the captures, two, it's such a good recruiting propaganda for the enemy that it produces more of what we don't want, and three, in this case it seems pointless to ask as the CIA already have the answers they seek as they wrote the operating manuals for the terrorists they are torturing, a nice twist that Bin Laden added was that he also franchised the process, you can't say he didn't have a sense of irony.

Me, I'd be asking the CIA why they failed to anticipate the 11th of Sept as my memory has Al Queda bombings following a fairly logical sequence of time, i.e., humans, bicycles, trucks, boats...what did the CIA think was going to be next? Intelligence appears to be a misnomer.

[henry quirk]

"if we're going to claim to be fighting a moral 'war' then we have to be the moral ones"

There's no such animal as 'moral war'.

Any talk by the elected or appointed about a 'moral war' is, as you say, to "salve the American view of themselves".

As for the rest, A_uk: we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Arising_uk]

There's no such animal as 'moral war'. ...

True but there is such a thing as a moral cause.

As for the rest, A_uk: we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough.

Always galls me that we appear to agree on many issues but appear to differ in politics.

[henry quirk]

"there is such a thing as a moral cause"

I disagree. Morality is just a sometimes useful fiction. Moral causes are the trumped up 'reasons' we use to justify doing, or attempting to do, things we want to do (the 'wanting' is the real reason, the real justification, for 'doing').

#

"Always galls me that we appear to agree on many issues but appear to differ in politics."

You simply haven't embraced the Dark Side...c'mon over, A_uk...the water's fine...

[vegetariantaxidermy]

"you put yourself on a pedestal as being all about 'freedom' and enlightenment"

Er, when did I ever drone on (here, or in any forum) about 'freedom' or 'enlightenment'?

You may be mistaking me for some other jackass.

#

"If you are torturing people (which you are) then you are no better than the Inquisition."

Mebbe. If, however, I can secure the life of one precious to me by way of torturing someone, then -- fuck you -- that's exactly what I'll do.

If -- as my proxy -- the CIA can secure the lives of other Americans (a group which may include those precious to me) by way of torturing someone, then -- fuck you --that's exactly what I want them to do.

More shallow, non-thinking idiocy. Ok, just torture the 'guilty' ones. The ones you know ONE HUNDRED PER CENT are guilty. You can tell they are 100 per cent guilty because they look like Arabs. It's easy, see?? Gee, your precious CIA might even torture one of YOUR loved ones one day (or you with a bit of luck).

[henry quirk]

"your precious CIA might even torture...you with a bit of luck."

Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Wouldn't be the first time a tool was used against its owner

[Bill Wiltrack]

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Actually, I think you are right...which is another good reason for me to oppose torture.




From Wikipedia:

Torture is the act of deliberately inflicting severe physical or psychological pain and possibly injury to a person (or animal), usually to one who is physically restrained or otherwise under the torturer's control or custody and unable to defend against what is being done to him or her.

Torture has been carried out or sanctioned by individuals, groups and states throughout history from ancient times to modern day, and forms of torture can vary greatly in duration from only a few minutes to several days or even longer.

Reasons for torture can include punishment, revenge, political re-education, deterrence, interrogation or coercion of the victim or a third party, or simply the sadistic gratification of those carrying out or observing the torture.

The torturer may or may not intend to kill or injure the victim, but sometimes torture is deliberately fatal and can precede a murder or serve as a cruel form of capital punishment. In other cases, the torturer may be indifferent to the condition of the victim.

Alternatively, some forms of torture are designed to inflict psychological pain or leave as little physical injury or evidence as possible while achieving the same psychological devastation. Depending on the aim, even a form of torture that is intentionally fatal may be prolonged to allow the victim to suffer as long as possible (such as half-hanging).



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[Arising_uk]

.Actually, I think you are right...which is another good reason for me to oppose torture.

So what will you actually be doing to oppose torture?

[Bill Wiltrack]

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...um, I oppose torture in my mind...ya know, so I won't torture other people & stuff.


I think we are talking about torture as a concept. A concept that should not be used.



Welcome to this discussion.






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[bobevenson]

Bill, you have to understand that Arising does not understand the definition of a concept. If you express a concept, Arising will ask what you are doing to achieve it, like it has no meaning unless you are personally involved. Of course, that's moronic, but you have to realize, it's a typical European trait.