The universe expands ...

[SpheresOfBalance]

Whoops!

[SpheresOfBalance]

Not even an address on earth is necessarily fixed, as plate tectonics and volcanic activity, see that minutely their relative positions are constantly changing, but in space come on, nothing is fixed on any great level at all, gravity? Yeah right! in an aqueous medium, much more so than water. Here let me put you in a life raft in the middle of our pacific ocean, with plenty of provisions, about a month's worth, and we'll send a schooner, with a capable captain and a sextant, and your lat/long at the time of your being set afloat, to come and rescue you, the odds are your gonna die, as you'll be no where in sight once he arrives, even if we gave the captain the most accurate GPS, the odds are he'll never find you before you die, and now release one hundred white helium filled balloons, and one black, and watch how fast they move, Find the black one or anyone, even remotely near their release point.

Now let me set you afloat once again, but in the vacuum of space, and give you a little nudge. Depending what's along your relative trajectory, not as you're released, but when your relative trajectories meet, you could either end up one day traveling the speed of light, or as close as possible, or otherwise, as in a fixture on a planet, in the core of a star, or part of an asteroid/comet, but surely on another trajectory, eventually, as matter experiences the forces of the universe. And surely we'll never find your address, as you shall never necessarily have one, quite the opposite. There is no address in space, as there is nothing fixed. And even if it were, you wouldn't know it, as there is nothing one can detect, nor sense, that is indicative of anything such, like an X, that marks the spot. How can anything stay in one spot in a space that is constantly seeing supernovas of far greater powerful explosions than man has ever witnessed on planet earth, add together all the nuclear bombs, he's ever exploded, and still they're dwarfed. If our star was of the type that could supernova, we would instantly, relatively speaking, be lost forever, vaporized into microscopic particles that would eventually become nebula. The matter in space is in a constant state of flux, more than aqueous, there are no addresses, especially for one that believes in infinity. As with infinity there can be no x, y or z components, as there is no perimeter, no zero, from which to measure.

Yes, relativity is very interesting indeed, as to size, as to position, and as to time. It forces man to revisit those concepts he created long ago, so as to cope, as the BS that they are, relatively speaking, of course.

P.S. I asked someone once, 'how can it be said that it was a "big" bang, as then, there was nothing relative so as to call it "big,"' to which they replied, 'relative to what is now, it was big, and while I did not say, I thought of how small a nuclear bomb is, relative to it's explosion/destruction/sphere of influence, and chuckled to my self, as this sphere of influence, if they be correct, has been expanding for 13 billion years. Now imagine the extent of one of our nuclear bombs explosions, still expanding, 13 billion years later, and yet the explosion of one of our nuclear bombs is dwarfed by comparison. Ha ha haaah! Big bang indeed! Ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaah! Relatively speaking???? Not!!!! It was quite small, relative to now, and had no size at all, relative to then. If they be correct.

[Godfree]

Which is precisely Parmenides' point; if space is some substance, you can't take a lump of it and move it around; you can only move something into nothing, but since on that interpretation of space, nothing doesn't exist, no thing can move. Apparently Parmenides was so convinced of the logic that he believed that all appearance of movement and change must be illusory. Leucippus and Democritus insisted, with good reason, that change was real and that therefore, nothing, void, must exist and that reality is made of void and tiny bits of matter which are uncuttable, atomos in ancient Greek. Oddly enough, modern atomic theory is partially in agreement with Parmenides in that particles are 'waves' in a quantum field. what isnot clearis whether this quantum field is infinite and timeless, as you believe the universe to be, or it is something that popped into existence and went nuts as the Big Bang.[/quote]

In order for the universe to "pop" into being ,
there must be all of the matter thats is about to expand in this point of singularity ,
so a collection of matter compressed into something tiny ,
what does that sound like to you ,? , a black hole by any chance ,?
knowing what we do about the cycles of the universe , and that black holes exist ,
wouldn't it be a fairly logical conclusion to draw that what went bang ,
was a black hole , and we may have an example for us to study ,
The Crab Nebula , the site of a massive bang about a thousand years ago ,
there are apparently stars forming in the dust cloud , lots of stars ,
seems to me that was a galaxies worth of matter , not a stars explosion ,
but a galaxy ,and the evidence is there for us to study

[Godfree]

P.S. I asked someone once, 'how can it be said that it was a "big" bang, as then, there was nothing relative so as to call it "big,"' to which they replied, 'relative to what is now, it was big, and while I did not say, I thought of how small a nuclear bomb is, relative to it's explosion/destruction/sphere of influence, and chuckled to my self, as this sphere of influence, if they be correct, has been expanding for 13 billion years. Now imagine the extent of one of our nuclear bombs explosions, still expanding, 13 billion years later, and yet the explosion of one of our nuclear bombs is dwarfed by comparison. Ha ha haaah! Big bang indeed! Ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaah! Relatively speaking???? Not!!!! It was quite small, relative to now, and had no size at all, relative to then. If they be correct.[/quote]

Little bang , according the the bbt itself , the universe is finite , thats small ,
compared to infinity ,so here's a puzzle for you SOB ,
if the big/little bang contained all of the matter in the universe , and the universe was infinite ,
even compressed matter/infinity , is still infinite in size ,
so an infinite universe doesn't work with this bbt and a moment of creation ,
if you accept the bb , you accept the universe is finite ,,???

[SpheresOfBalance]

P.S. I asked someone once, 'how can it be said that it was a "big" bang, as then, there was nothing relative so as to call it "big,"' to which they replied, 'relative to what is now, it was big, and while I did not say, I thought of how small a nuclear bomb is, relative to it's explosion/destruction/sphere of influence, and chuckled to my self, as this sphere of influence, if they be correct, has been expanding for 13 billion years. Now imagine the extent of one of our nuclear bombs explosions, still expanding, 13 billion years later, and yet the explosion of one of our nuclear bombs is dwarfed by comparison. Ha ha haaah! Big bang indeed! Ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaah! Relatively speaking???? Not!!!! It was quite small, relative to now, and had no size at all, relative to then. If they be correct.

Little bang , according the the bbt itself , the universe is finite , thats small ,
compared to infinity ,so here's a puzzle for you SOB ,
if the big/little bang contained all of the matter in the universe , and the universe was infinite ,
even compressed matter/infinity , is still infinite in size ,
so an infinite universe doesn't work with this bbt and a moment of creation ,
if you accept the bb , you accept the universe is finite ,,???[/quote]
As I have said long ago, in one of our previous conversations, I grew up from the age of around 8 believing that space never ends, that the universe is infinite, as that's what I was told, and from that age I could see, that I couldn't see it in my mind, as it made my head hurt in circular logic, between the two possibilities of infinite, and finite. It was my introduction to the concept of infinity. You are the first, that I have seen of late, that believes in the infinity of space. Truthfully, as I have said, there is no way one could know either way, either finite, or infinite, from the perspective of a limited visual horizon, which is quite possibly, a mere fraction, of the truth, of the expanse, of the universe. You, as others, would call me off the fence, but I see that the fence has the only clear vision. As Rush sang, "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." I try not to take blind leaps of faith, though as to education, I, like most, do so every day, to one extent or another, this is just one of the biggest ones, which I try to avoid, as it's truth means that much to me.

[Godfree]

Little bang , according the the bbt itself , the universe is finite , thats small ,
compared to infinity ,so here's a puzzle for you SOB ,
if the big/little bang contained all of the matter in the universe , and the universe was infinite ,
even compressed matter/infinity , is still infinite in size ,
so an infinite universe doesn't work with this bbt and a moment of creation ,
if you accept the bb , you accept the universe is finite ,,???[/quote]
As I have said long ago, in one of our previous conversations, I grew up from the age of around 8 believing that space never ends, that the universe is infinite, as that's what I was told, and from that age I could see, that I couldn't see it in my mind, as it made my head hurt in circular logic, between the two possibilities of infinite, and finite. It was my introduction to the concept of infinity. You are the first, that I have seen of late, that believes in the infinity of space. Truthfully, as I have said, there is no way one could know either way, either finite, or infinite, from the perspective of a limited visual horizon, which is quite possibly, a mere fraction, of the truth, of the expanse, of the universe. You, as others, would call me off the fence, but I see that the fence has the only clear vision. As Rush sang, "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." I try not to take blind leaps of faith, though as to education, I, like most, do so every day, to one extent or another, this is just one of the biggest ones, which I try to avoid, as it's truth means that much to me.[/quote]

Ok I see that you don't feel it is a position you feel you can defend or prove ,
so you prefer to remain impartial or give either view the benefit of the doubt ,
as there is no" proof" either way , is that a fair assessment of what you said ,,??
if so putting aside your beliefs on the subject ,
do you understand my point about infinity and the bbt , that they are incompatible ,
that there is lots of things wrong with an infinite universe ,
coming and going with a little bang ,
for starters try answering this ,
how many times do you have to compress infinity before it becomes a point of singularity ,,???

[SpheresOfBalance]

Little bang , according the the bbt itself , the universe is finite , thats small ,
compared to infinity ,so here's a puzzle for you SOB ,
if the big/little bang contained all of the matter in the universe , and the universe was infinite ,
even compressed matter/infinity , is still infinite in size ,
so an infinite universe doesn't work with this bbt and a moment of creation ,
if you accept the bb , you accept the universe is finite ,,???

As I have said long ago, in one of our previous conversations, I grew up from the age of around 8 believing that space never ends, that the universe is infinite, as that's what I was told, and from that age I could see, that I couldn't see it in my mind, as it made my head hurt in circular logic, between the two possibilities of infinite, and finite. It was my introduction to the concept of infinity. You are the first, that I have seen of late, that believes in the infinity of space. Truthfully, as I have said, there is no way one could know either way, either finite, or infinite, from the perspective of a limited visual horizon, which is quite possibly, a mere fraction, of the truth, of the expanse, of the universe. You, as others, would call me off the fence, but I see that the fence has the only clear vision. As Rush sang, "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." I try not to take blind leaps of faith, though as to education, I, like most, do so every day, to one extent or another, this is just one of the biggest ones, which I try to avoid, as it's truth means that much to me.[/quote]

Ok I see that you don't feel it is a position you feel you can defend or prove ,
so you prefer to remain impartial or give either view the benefit of the doubt ,
as there is no" proof" either way , is that a fair assessment of what you said ,,??
OK, fair enough, but I would prefer to say it as such, in being as exacting, as I can be, which is that:, "I know that it's a position that currently, I can neither prove, nor disprove, as no human can currently know it, they can only believe it, as knowing, is contained in the proving, with certainty."

if so putting aside your beliefs on the subject ,
do you understand my point about infinity and the bbt , that they are incompatible ,
that there is lots of things wrong with an infinite universe ,
coming and going with a little bang ,
for starters try answering this ,
how many times do you have to compress infinity before it becomes a point of singularity ,,???[/quote]
Of course they aren't, or they are, depending on whether we can agree as to how infinity comes into play. What I mean to say, is that, one could mean infinitely vast, (large), and that it is continuously (infinitely) so, or infinite in existence, in that, the same constituents, (all matter), are forever, endlessly, expanding and contracting, like a pulsating life-form, in and of itself, much like that of a beating heart, only rearranged. The point being that it's not sufficient to use the word infinite, without further clarification, as to what one actually means when they use the word, as someone else may see infinity, as it pertains to the cosmos, differently. What all, could in fact, be infinite, in terms of the universe?

Are you sure that those proponents of the big bang see the universe as infinite, in the same way you do, if at all? I am unsure of which people you are referring too, as I could imagine that there may be proponents of the BBT that see it slightly different, as to the specifics, of the dynamics involved.

[Godfree]

Are you sure that those proponents of the big bang see the universe as infinite, in the same way you do, if at all? I am unsure of which people you are referring too, as I could imagine that there may be proponents of the BBT that see it slightly different, as to the specifics, of the dynamics involved.[/color][/quote]

Sob you seem like a bright chap , I respect your intellect ,
but I'm not getting the sense that your grasping my point ,?
Infinity , space and time go on forever , in all directions , although my brain hurts when I think of the infinitely small,
so this isn't rocket science , and I am not suggesting the bbt sees the universe as infinite quite the opposite ,
I'm saying that the bbt must claim a finite universe ,
that an infinite universe can not work with the bbt ,
so for you to sit on the fence in regards to is the universe infinite or not ,
should not prevent you from seeing the logic that infinity cannot be gathered into a point of singularity ,
SO TO ACCEPT THE BBT YOU ACCEPT THE UNIVERSE IS FINITE ,,,!!!

[SpheresOfBalance]

Are you sure that those proponents of the big bang see the universe as infinite, in the same way you do, if at all? I am unsure of which people you are referring too, as I could imagine that there may be proponents of the BBT that see it slightly different, as to the specifics, of the dynamics involved.

Sob you seem like a bright chap , I respect your intellect ,
but I'm not getting the sense that your grasping my point ,?
Infinity , space and time go on forever , in all directions , although my brain hurts when I think of the infinitely small,
so this isn't rocket science , and I am not suggesting the bbt sees the universe as infinite quite the opposite ,
I'm saying that the bbt must claim a finite universe ,
that an infinite universe can not work with the bbt ,
so for you to sit on the fence in regards to is the universe infinite or not ,
should not prevent you from seeing the logic that infinity cannot be gathered into a point of singularity ,
SO TO ACCEPT THE BBT YOU ACCEPT THE UNIVERSE IS FINITE ,,,!!![/quote]
Godfree, I understand your point, exactly, as it's easy to understand. but you seemingly miss mine. My point was that I can see an infinite universe with or without a bang. As it all depends on how one applies the word infinite. Is it infinite in size and existence or is it infinite in existence and not in size, the latter could support the BBT. Where did you first hear of an infinite universe? Or did you make it up, out of thin air? As I originally said above, 2 message's ago, that I was told as an 8 year old, and believed that, when he said, 'space never ended,' it was indicative of size, but now see, as I'm older, that he could have meant, as I said in the previous message, that it was only infinite in existence, as it expands and contracts, forever. The point being that the word infinite requires qualifiers for it to really mean anything, for one to really say anything.

So let me ask you again, "Where did you first hear of an infinite universe? Or did you make it up, out of thin air?"

[Hjarloprillar]

Well said

I believe the is verse is finite both in extension and duration.
Apriori
A priori justification is a type of epistemic justification that is, in some sense, independent of experience. we are not at big bang. we will not be at end.
We work from evidence. And belief. We are life. We are life and reason.
this verse is just one of many.
Evolution does not work just here it is a law that goes up the chain to many verses. . where do you think the laws of this universe came from. 'nowhere'?
that the speed of light is just so that planks constant is just so. that gravity is just so.

of course . this is just MY belief.
i am very good at conceptual visualization.. but i cant use it here. i SEE how it works.
singularities..
-------------------------------------------
SoB if one never has tried to THINK the distance to Proximacenturi. then of course its all SO BIG it must be infinite.
I can fit distance to barnhards in head then i run out of brain.
concept rules and as a conceptual analyst.. i ....

[Godfree]

So let me ask you again, "Where did you first hear of an infinite universe? Or did you make it up, out of thin air?" [/color][/quote]

I like most discussed such things as a child ,
by 6 I had declared myself an Atheist , and it wasn't long after that I realized ,
that the universe must be infinite and that other versions of you and I ,
will be inevitable , you only have to travel far enough to encounter us ,,!! ,
but I can see now that the distances between us and other worlds is just too far ,
we will never build space craft to fly us to other worlds ,
it would take us 80,000 years just to reach our nearest star ,
and we are pretty confident there is no life there .
So ,, Sob ,, your doing it again , your saying there are many forms of infinite ,?
and to my mind thats just playing with words,
I don't belief a finite "sized" universe is possible , you apparently do ,
so give a go for me , what is on the outside of the finite universe ,??
what is at the edge of the finite universe , a void , a brick , the nothing ,???
and how long does this nothing extend for ,,??
these are all questions that suggest a finite universe ,
is simply not possible ,,..

[tillingborn]

I believe the is verse is finite both in extension and duration.

What do you mean by 'believe'? Isn't that what religion requires you to do, regardless of the evidence?

A priori justification is a type of epistemic justification that is, in some sense, independent of experience.

I think the sense you are looking for is definition. Science can only account for what we can see, beyond that is metaphysics.

of course . this is just MY belief.

That is all any philosophy is.

[SpheresOfBalance]

So let me ask you again, "Where did you first hear of an infinite universe? Or did you make it up, out of thin air?" [/color]

I like most discussed such things as a child ,
by 6 I had declared myself an Atheist , and it wasn't long after that I realized ,
that the universe must be infinite and that other versions of you and I ,
will be inevitable , you only have to travel far enough to encounter us ,,!! ,
but I can see now that the distances between us and other worlds is just too far ,
we will never build space craft to fly us to other worlds ,
it would take us 80,000 years just to reach our nearest star ,
and we are pretty confident there is no life there .
So ,, Sob ,, your doing it again , your saying there are many forms of infinite ,?
No, I'm not, I'm much like you, but I've adapted as I've aged, I don't know how old you are or how much education you've had, either institutional or self taught, but I, @ 55, and with some college education as well as self taught, I love science documentaries, so the Science channel along with many PBS stations are on my TV, more than not. I can see that it's possible for the universe to be infinite in more ways than one, as infinite is really just a number. One does not go around and say, "I have 4 (infinite) in my hand." As someone would then ask, "4 (infinite) what?" Then you could say 4 apples, each having 4 seeds, 4 spots on their peels, and came from 4 different trees, and when I eat then all my stomach gets 4 times bigger than it is when empty. "4 WHAT?" "INFINITE WHAT?" Size, longevity, colors, beauty, dimensions. I'm not wanting to be a pr|ck. It's just that it dawned on me, before answering you, that the word infinite, was not sufficient in and of itself, such that I found that I could not honestly answer you, that's all it was, HONESTLY! I saw that we have to first agree as to what was meant my infinite.

So now I see that you only speak of size, and nothing else? So you think it's longevity is finite?

and to my mind thats just playing with words,
Not at all. See above, and I think you'll agree, as you are a kiwi and I a yank, and there is no necessary accounting for meaning in such a word without qualifiers, even for two that live next door to one another.

I don't belief a finite "sized" universe is possible , you apparently do ,
I believe that anything that's outside of our current visual horizon is possible, yes. Man has a bad tendency of basing his belief of what is beyond his understanding, on that which he thinks he understands, as if the legacy of his constructed truths was based upon a foundation that is necessarily correct, with certainty, which is not to say that along the way he doesn't revise previous beliefs he initially asserted as truths. But I see then, that to continue in the same way, lends to the incorrect beliefs that are then used as foundations for further misconception, such that I prefer to just stop, and then refer to everything beyond us as merely possibilities, as it ensures an level playing field, so that the truth can more easily be found, as usually it'll allow more possibilities to be entertained, as multiple possibilities (heads) are always better that one. One never can ever foretell where true in understanding shall originate. It could sometimes be spurred, by simply watching a child at play. (just saw a documentary on skyscrapers, and as it turns out, their inception was simply the result of the inventors wife placing a book on a wire bird cage.)

so give a go for me , what is on the outside of the finite universe ,??
what is at the edge of the finite universe , a void , a brick , the nothing ,???
and how long does this nothing extend for ,,??
these are all questions that suggest a finite universe ,
And of course, these are some of the same things I thought, so I get where you're coming from.

is simply not possible ,,..
But I find it strange that you see one of the possibilities as more believable than the other, as I find them equally troublesome. I truly do not see one as more probable than the other. I also see why people accuse you as being a believer in a god, because like your version of the universe, god is infinite. They just see that you've replaced 'their' (the one in their bible) god with your 'universe god' Same idea, different substance.

[/quote]

[SpheresOfBalance]

I believe the is verse is finite both in extension and duration.

What do you mean by 'believe'? Isn't that what religion requires you to do, regardless of the evidence?
I for one, am bound by no religion, and my belief is just stated as such to compensate for the truth, of actuality, in case the evidence is tainted.

A priori justification is a type of epistemic justification that is, in some sense, independent of experience.

I think the sense you are looking for is definition. Science can only account for what we can see, beyond that is metaphysics.
So by your definition, everything outside our visual horizon, is simple metaphysics, having nothing to do with science; Just conjecture!

of course . this is just MY belief.

That is all any philosophy is.
Not necessarily true. With certainty, one can say that it is often true of the process, but not necessarily the result, maybe yes and maybe no, but of course the proof is in the pudding, or in other words beyond the theory, in the empirical proof, of the scientific method.

[tillingborn]

I believe the is verse is finite both in extension and duration.

What do you mean by 'believe'? Isn't that what religion requires you to do, regardless of the evidence?

I for one, am bound by no religion, and my belief is just stated as such to compensate for the truth, of actuality, in case the evidence is tainted.

People believe things to be true despite evidence being tainted, in some cases scientists have deliberately tainted their evidence to maintain their beliefs. Some people believe things for which there is no evidence and in some cases despite overwhelming evidence that contradicts their beliefs. What's more people can get very upset if you challenge their beliefs, in some cases, they will fight you to the death over beliefs for which there is absolutely no proof. Nothing so dramatic has happened on this forum, but in this thread, I have had Godfree have a go because I don't believe the universe is infinite, at the same time Hjarloprillar has had a pop, because I don't believe the universe is finite. It's all good fun, but the fact is, I simply don't know and can't see the point of nailing my colours to any particular mast.

A priori justification is a type of epistemic justification that is, in some sense, independent of experience.

I think the sense you are looking for is definition. Science can only account for what we can see, beyond that is metaphysics.

So by your definition, everything outside our visual horizon, is simple metaphysics, having nothing to do with science; Just conjecture!

Yes. If there is no conceivable observation that can be made, it isn't physics.

of course . this is just MY belief.

That is all any philosophy is.

Not necessarily true.

Well it's a quirk of logic that the fact that it isn't necessarily true means it is necessarily true.