Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:56 pm

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:38 pm ...its gross (and perverse) incoherence...

"I don't understand" doesn't mean "it's grossly, perversely incoherent."

I understand perfectly well the incoherence of the idea that a loving, omnipotent God would torture a person for an eternity, and I also understand perfectly well that you have no way of defending this incoherent idea.

But my point has been well established on those two fronts: that the idea is (perversely) incoherent, and that you are so incapable of defending it that you don't even try to.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:56 pm It's not a threat.

It's what God promises.

Hey, everybody, Immanuel Can knows the mind and will of God. How does he know this? Because he read something in some books written thousands of years ago by some guys. The Story those books tell is utterly contradictory, and there's no way of linking it to God, but that doesn't give him pause for thought. It must be God's true revelation anyway, because some other guys told him it was.

Watch out, because if you don't join Immanuel Can's club by the time you die, God's gonna fry your butt in hell for eternity. How does Immanuel Can know this? Because he read it in some books written by some guys thousands of years ago, and some other guys told him that the books were true. So, now he gets to threaten people all he likes - but no, it's not him threatening anybody, he's just the spokesperson for God!

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:12 pm I understand perfectly well the incoherence of the idea that a loving, omnipotent God would torture a person for an eternity,

He doesn't.

You get what you choose. When you choose no light, no truth, no love, no joy, no blessedness, because of resentment of the Source of these things, you get exactly what you bargained for. You get what the Bible calls, "the Lake of Fire" and "eternal death." You can read it all for yourself, and don't need me to tell you any more.

But that's what free will can do.

...you are so incapable of defending it that you don't even try to.

Well, the idea was wrong. And God doesn't need me to defend Him...just to report faithfully what He's said. But if an explanation is what you're looking for, there's one above.

We can discuss it, or you can go on pretending I didn't answer because I refused your hopelessly slanted premise. Your choice.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:56 pm It's not a threat.

It's what God promises.

Hey, everybody, Immanuel Can knows the mind and will of God.

I didn't say that. But I can read what God has said.

Can you?

Yep. As expected, you've got nothing. The best you can offer is:

"You choose hell for yourself".

No, you freak, nobody chooses to suffer unimaginably for eternity. And if they somehow mistakenly found themselves in that situation, a truly loving, omnipotent God would without hesitation rescue them from such a fate.

That has nothing to do with whether I can, or can't, express my opinions.

AJ, if you could tell me what my perspective is, and why I'm lost in it, and why my opinions, drawn from that perspective, are irrelevant and unimportant, you would have, lickety-split, and you'd have relished doin' so.

You haven't preferring instead to play the distraction game (an old, obvious, strategy).

We both know what that means.

Prove me wrong: tell me, what's my perspective, AJ?

Regardin' Hell & consequences...

I build a camp fire, hot & bright.

You stick your right hand in the fire and get one helluva burn.

I give you first aid and urge you not to stick your hand in the fire again.

You do it again: you're burned even worse now.

I give you first aid again, warning you can't keep doin' this without crippling yourself or worse.

You do it again and again and again: burn on burn on burn; I keep attendin' to the increasingly serious injuries, pleading with you to just stop.

Finally, despite my attention and warnings and pleadings, there's nuthin' left of your right hand to patch up (and we haven't even gotten into infection territory yet).

Who's fault is it your new handle is Lefty?

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:25 pm Yep. As expected, you've got nothing. The best you can offer is:

"You choose hell for yourself".

You do.

You're right now learning what God wants you to choose. If you choose otherwise, don't look to blame Him. You knew.

... a truly loving, omnipotent God would without hesitation rescue them from such a fate.

He already has.

In fact, He sent His Son to die for you, to do just that. But because relationship cannot be forced, but must be chosen, it's up to you what you get. Even God will not force you into Heaven. (John Locke said that too, actually.)

Some people just don't want to be rescued.

Do you?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:08 pm Some people just don't want to be rescued.

You really are deranged.

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:12 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:08 pm Some people just don't want to be rescued.

You really are deranged.

I'm just telling you what the Book says. What you do with that...well, that's 100% on you. It's not my job to make you want it. It's your job to decide whether or not you do.

But now you know.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:16 pm I'm just telling you what the Book says.

Yep, the stories some dudes wrote down thousands of years ago which some other dudes told you were true - God's revelation no less - which was good enough for you. The story is utterly contradictory, but hey, what does Immanuel Can care? Just ignore that, keep pretending, and carry on with the show.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:45 pm...

I.C.,

Do you notice how many people repeatedly recognize and call out your deceptive/twisted discussion tactics and claims?

Do you think it's just because they're not as tuned into God as you are?

Are you consciously aware that you do it, and are you somehow entertained and served from carrying on in such a way?
Or are you not aware of it, and imagine yourself as honorable and true despite all of the feedback/challenges pointing out the contrary?

It's just fascinating to see nearly everyone challenge your tactics and claims in the same ways, and then come to the same conclusions about you throughout the years, and yet you carry on as if no one notices/remembers.

That seems to be an extraordinary example of the powerful extent of blindness and denial associated with (your) religious fervor, despite your denial of religious identity.

How can God be represented in such a way? Isn't it the god-believer who is being represented and served in such a way?

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:19 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:16 pm I'm just telling you what the Book says.

The story is utterly contradictory,

Tell me about that. What's the "contradictory" bit, for you?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:21 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:45 pm...

I.C.,

Do you notice how many people repeatedly recognize and call out your deceptive/twisted discussion tactics and claims?

Some people don't like what I tell them. But I give them the references, and cite the relevant sources. But they get mad because I won't bend their way.

And that's fine. The truth is not always popular. In fact, it often is not.

Do you think it's just because they're not as tuned into God as you are?

I'll let God say whether they are or aren't. But what they say is not what I find in the Bible. So you be the judge.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:23 pm

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:19 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:16 pm I'm just telling you what the Book says.

The story is utterly contradictory,

Tell me about that. What's the "contradictory" bit, for you?

That says everything. We are supposedly communicating, but you act as though you are utterly oblivious to the main point I've been making in those communications. That's OK, because I'm not communicating for your benefit, but for the benefit of onlookers who can now (as if they couldn't previously!) see how empty you come up when challenged on the essential incoherence of your core religious beliefs.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:59 pm
Hold on, though.

No, IC, the time for holding on has passed. I have made my decision and it stands, with immediate effect. Case closed, i's dotted and t's crossed, signed, sealed and delivered. The fat lady has left the building.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:26 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:21 pm Do you notice how many people repeatedly recognize and call out your deceptive/twisted discussion tactics and claims?

Some people don't like what I tell them. But I give them the references, and cite the relevant sources. But they get mad because I won't bend their way.

So that's how you see it: You do not think you are deceptive or that you twist things to win or deny a point. All of these people challenge you in the same ways and come to the same conclusions about your claims and responses, and that's because (according to you) 'they are mad that you won't bend their way'. It's fascinating that's how you frame it.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:26 pmAnd that's fine. The truth is not always popular. In fact, it often is not.

Ah yes, it is YOU who speaks 'the truth' -- even though it has been challenged and shown that you do not.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:26 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:21 pmDo you think it's just because they're not as tuned into God as you are?

I'll let God say whether they are or aren't. But what they say is not what I find in the Bible. So you be the judge.

The Bible was written by primitive men long ago who had certain leanings. Now we can recognize 'God' informs everyone here and now, no particular books or credentials needed. It appears that many people are informed about you. There's no need to wait and see! That seems like a delay tactic to avoid accountability.