Philosophy Now Forum

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 6:52 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 6:37 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 6:34 am That is your own 'supposition' that non-theists are 'supposing we're in a giant cosmic accident';

Not at all. It's what any Atheist is required by his own belief system to believe. I certainly don't want him to do it.

But he has to believe that this universe came into existence by accident...that it came without any purpose...that it was not "intended" by anyone or anything to go to any particular future...that everything is doomed to extinction...and that there are no objective rules in the meanwhile for how one conducts oneself.

If not every Atheist believes this, it's only because not every Atheist is thinking clearly. But their creed demands it of them, if they are to be rational and consistent.

Again it is your supposition that "But he has to believe that this universe came into existence by accident..."

No, if he's an Atheist, he HAS to think that's the case.

He has to think that an accident called "the Big Bang" or more correctly, some accidental thing prior to the BB, is the ultimate, final and only real explanation for why this universe exists. If he thinks there's any other entity, anything deliberate, intelligent, purposeful, and so on, and then refers to that, then he's stopped being an Atheist at all. He's now some kind of religionist...a polytheist, a pantheist, a gnostic...or some other such thing.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:10 am

immanuel cant wrote:...since the fall took place almost immediately after the Creation...

Speaking of that...

Adrienne Greene

"Yes, God knew Adam and Eve would sin before he created them. Isaiah quoted a statement from the Lord to show us: “I am God, and there is none like me. I declare from the beginning how it will end and foretell from the start what has not yet happened. I decree that my purpose will stand, and I will fulfill my every plan” (Isaiah 46:9, 10, TPT.) In addition to being omnipotent, God is also omniscient (unlimited knowledge), so he knows everything that pertains to the earth and everyone on it from beginning to end. It’s a head-scratcher, I know. Why would God bother creating Adam and Eve? If he knew how it would all unfold, why would he even create?"

Over and again, the Christian Bible provides us example after example of Divine behavior that can only be accounted for by pointing out over and over again that "God works in mysterious ways".

..are you interested in what I have to say regarding the above (or am I still just a 'pinhead' to you?)

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:01 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:14 am It's one thing for the project of a perfect being not to go quite to plan, but to fail so quickly...

Can you be surprised at the unreliability of mankind? It's all they seem to exhibit, sometimes.

Is that because of faulty design, do you think?

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:31 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:01 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:14 am It's one thing for the project of a perfect being not to go quite to plan, but to fail so quickly...

Can you be surprised at the unreliability of mankind? It's all they seem to exhibit, sometimes.

Is that because of faulty design, do you think?

I think it's because of free will.

"Free will," by definition, means that one has the actual possibility of doing one thing, or of doing the other. That's not "faulty design": in fact, it's a better design than Determinism or Fatalism, which would mean there would be no possibility of free will. But it's not a design that is not fraught with risk, since it always entails the undesirable alternative. When a creature has free will, he or she can go a different direction than you'd choose for them -- as anybody who's ever been a parent fully realizes, of course.

Milton put it this way. He said that mankind was "sufficient to have stood, but free to fall." If that's right, then the choice was actually 100% man's. He could have done otherwise; but he chose not to.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:31 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:01 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:14 am It's one thing for the project of a perfect being not to go quite to plan, but to fail so quickly...

Can you be surprised at the unreliability of mankind? It's all they seem to exhibit, sometimes.

Is that because of faulty design, do you think?

I'm warning you Harbal, or this could be you destiny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m97WlpsuU74

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:25 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:31 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:01 am
Can you be surprised at the unreliability of mankind? It's all they seem to exhibit, sometimes.

Is that because of faulty design, do you think?

I'm warning you Harbal, or this could be you destiny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m97WlpsuU74

I could do that, if I wanted to.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:39 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:31 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:01 am
Can you be surprised at the unreliability of mankind? It's all they seem to exhibit, sometimes.

Is that because of faulty design, do you think?

I think it's because of free will.

"Free will," by definition, means that one has the actual possibility of doing one thing, or of doing the other.

If I designed something, wanting it to do one thing but finding it immediately did the other, I think I would go back to the drawing board.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:01 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:25 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:31 am
Is that because of faulty design, do you think?

I'm warning you Harbal, or this could be you destiny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m97WlpsuU74

I could do that, if I wanted to.

But you'd be Welsh. ffs listen to IC, it's very important not to suffer such a con_sequence of events.

I'm not suggesting you as the "running man", dancing. (although, I'm certain you could do that)...no, you're the fella that says "I was having a quiet pint with the wife see, then this fella came in like a lunatic.." (atto - he's got the moves)

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:07 am No, if he's an Atheist, he HAS to think that's the case.

He has to think that an accident called "the Big Bang" or more correctly, some accidental thing prior to the BB, is the ultimate, final and only real explanation for why this universe exists. If he thinks there's any other entity, anything deliberate, intelligent, purposeful, and so on, and then refers to that, then he's stopped being an Atheist at all. He's now some kind of religionist...a polytheist, a pantheist, a gnostic...or some other such thing.

Regardless we have a few options.
God has always existed.
The Universe has always existed.
The Universe arose and had a beginning with or without God.

These are all accidents.
Unless God created God.
Which no one seems to mention.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:16 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:01 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:25 am

I'm warning you Harbal, or this could be you destiny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m97WlpsuU74

I could do that, if I wanted to.

But you'd be Welsh. ffs listen to IC, it's very important not to suffer such a con_sequence of events.

What did he say about being Welsh?

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:48 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:16 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:01 am

I could do that, if I wanted to.

But you'd be Welsh. ffs listen to IC, it's very important not to suffer such a con_sequence of events.

What did he say about being Welsh?

IC? He said nothing about being Welsh (if you listened to IC and became a Christian, you could avoid that dilema.)

Imagine for a moment how bad things can get when your Welsh father reveals his favourite biro collection, and insist you start your own collection...and all you want to do is collect buttons of varying colours.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:58 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:48 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:16 am

But you'd be Welsh. ffs listen to IC, it's very important not to suffer such a con_sequence of events.

What did he say about being Welsh?

IC? He said nothing about being Welsh (if you listened to IC and became a Christian, you could avoid that dilema.)

Imagine for a moment how bad things can get when your Welsh father reveals his favourite biro collection, and insist you start your own collection...and all you want to do is collect buttons of varying colours.

The Trouble comes when he declares the Parker Pen Heresy!! Then Notepads are drawn at dawn with threats to ink the heretics to death.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:39 am Milton put it this way. He said that mankind was "sufficient to have stood, but free to fall." If that's right, then the choice was actually 100% man's. He could have done otherwise; but he chose not to.

You can only say that man, relatively recently, achieved a state of mind where *free choice* became possible.

Primitive men, and proto-man, were entirely constrained by nature like animals are. So for the longer segment of human history there was hardly choice. For this reason Milton, and Christian theology, reverse-engineers by an idealistic assertion, a belief that man chose his fate.

Only a man raised to a level of consciousness where moral and ethical choices are conceived — this requires civilization and education — could begin to make a free-will choice.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:06 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:39 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:31 am
Is that because of faulty design, do you think?

I think it's because of free will.

"Free will," by definition, means that one has the actual possibility of doing one thing, or of doing the other.

If I designed something, wanting it to do one thing but finding it immediately did the other, I think I would go back to the drawing board.

Well, that's if it was something that had no choice, no volition, no will, no personality, no distinct identity...like if you made a boat, and it didn't float the way you liked. However, if you created a child, and then he disobeyed you and rejected you, would you hate him? Would you blame yourself for his rebellion? Would you go back to the drawing board, and make a puppet or a robot instead of a child, and think you'd done better?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:44 am The Universe has always existed.

Well, we might believe that...except for an inconvenient thing called "science."

The Universe arose and had a beginning with or without God.

Sorry...that's the opposite. Either the universe "had a beginning," or it "always existed." But for sure and for certain, we know the answer is not both.

These are all accidents.

Yes, that's what the Atheist has to believe, if he's being rational with himself.

Unless God created God.

Monotheists do not believe in any "created gods."

But you can consult the Romans or Greeks, or even the Norse about "created gods." They had plenty of those, and in fact had "creation stories" for them...like Zeus springing from the head of Chronos. And they were all, according to the legends, going to live for only a time, and then also die...like at Ragnarok. Now, those are "created gods"

Christians believe in the eternal God.