Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:05 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:17 pm
But in the matter of God, cynicism is perhaps more urgent. There's too much at stake in our being wrong about that, and we feel (perhaps) that faith in that area would be too extreme, too trusting, too demanding of us. And yet, in that one thing, God drops the bar of faith to its lowest level for us. He asks very little faith...only as much as a mustard seed's worth, or only as much as a smoking flax produces smoke...it is enough. He lets us keep most of our cynicsm, yet says, "Do not come
with no faith at all; but short of that, you may come."
Still the offer is too much for many. The stakes seem too high. Yet, at that point, what is left to lose? One's freedom, perhaps, for a few years...a few forbidden indulgences...a few moments of temporary elation...in exchange for forever. So it's hard to see what one ultimately gains by a life of cynicism, as Browning suggests, especially in that area.
I think there will always be a difficulty in our discussions on this. I will always be looking at it from the outside, and you from the inside.
So far, that may be true; but there's no necessity of it being forever.
You say there is too much at stake when it comes to the question of belief or faith in God, yet I get no sense of anything being at stake.
Well, it makes two kinds of difference. Firstly, of course, it makes an eternal difference. That one, you may doubt...yet, if true, it certainly makes the stakes ultimate. But the second, even you can't doubt...that is, that knowing God should change one's life. For better or worse, it makes all the difference to how one continues, including what one's goals and motives are, what gives one joy or concern, how one uses one's resources and time, how one invests oneself in relationships, how one speaks, where one goes, what one does...
Those are high stakes, even if we consider merely this present life. Being a Christian takes everything one has. And if one doesn't see that sort of level of personal commitment in some who profess to be Christians, then on authorization of Jesus Christ Himself, you have permission to doubt their sincerity and the truth of their claim.
The stakes are high, whether we sense they are or not.
What I can't imagine my way into is how one could have strong feelings towards a non-physical being. Just as I don't see how one could fall in love with someone they had never seen, never heard or never had any direct contact with in any real sense.
For very good reason. Jesus Christ Himself said, "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God." What you're experiencing is exactly what he said would be the case.
You could describe God to me in the most wonderful terms imaginable, but I couldn't form a strong emotional attachment to a description, and the idea of purposefully striving to do that gives me an uncomfortable feeling.
Well, may I make a suggestion? Chase that. Track down for yourself why that is.
Ask yourself why it "gives you an uncomfortable feeling." There is something there, something behind that unease...is it the same kind of unease you feel in other circumstances? Or does this very topic give you a special kind of apprehensiveness you're not accustomed to experiencing in other contexts? Or is this "uncomfortableness" you experience qualitatively different?
Don't take this as an attempt to devalue your perspective on it all, I am just trying to explain my perspective, and explain why the prospect of my ever seeing things in the same way as you is so remote.
No, no...no offense taken. I understand the spirit in which you're speaking, and have no anxiety about answering. In fact, what you're saying is exactly what we should expect to be true: you should have the feeling of being on the outside of something you're not sure at all that you want to get into, and that feeling should be fairly strong.
After all, there are stakes.
