nihilism

[Iwannaplato]

Okay, that's your belief. Mine on the other hand starts with you defending objective morality but then never really exploring in depth what you believe that is predicated on...God? Ideology? Deontology? Biological imperatives? Or do you "just know" it's objective? Another gib, MagsJ and Maia?

Why would I be defending 'objective morality' if that's not the current topic of discussion???

A solid response. I'd like to point out that what you quoted of his doesn't really make any sense.

Okay, that's your belief. Mine.....

so mine refers to his belief.....

...... on the other hand starts with you defending objective morality but then never really exploring in depth what you believe that is predicated on...God? Ideology? Deontology? Biological imperatives? Or do you "just know" it's objective? Another gib, MagsJ and Maia?

his belief starts with Phyllo defending objective morality, but then.........[???].
That doesn't sound like a belief.

Now this may seem like quibbling, but I think it is part of a pattern where actually being clear about his beliefs, and this one seems to be a kind of moral one, is avoided.

Does he believe you should do that?
He's a nihilist. He can be consistent and say he wants you to do that.
But he might have meant something else...who knows.

I think a lot of not quite saying things and also implying things, leaving out clear steps in an argument is a pattern of his.

[phyllo]

Corrected in regard to what? I point out that any number of religions revolve precisely around moral commandments, immortality and salvation. Around connecting the dots between the behaviors, you choose on this side of the grave and, as a result of that, the fate of "I" on the other side.

That's the gist of it.

You believe that you already understand religion. You believe that you know the characteristics of "any number" of religions. You believe that Buddhism is just like Evangelical Christianity, as are other religions. You don't think that any of your beliefs need correcting.

Let's end off with this quote:

“It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows.” – Epictetus

[Systematic]

On the other hand, in the absence of God, as has been noted by some, "all things are permitted". And, for the sociopath, who starts with the presumption that right and wrong revolves solely around that which sustains his or her own self-gratification, any behavior can be rationalized.

Enough "sociopaths" banding together would never allow such a dystopia, because dystopia is against their own best interest.

[iambiguous]

Okay, that's your belief. Mine on the other hand starts with you defending objective morality but then never really exploring in depth what you believe that is predicated on...God? Ideology? Deontology? Biological imperatives? Or do you "just know" it's objective? Another gib, MagsJ and Maia?

Why would I be defending 'objective morality' if that's not the current topic of discussion???

Huh?

The topic of discussion on this thread is nihilism. And over and again I make it clear that "here and now" I believe moral nihilism -- situational ethics -- is a reasonable frame of mind in a No God world.

On the other hand, I don't rule out the possibility that philosophers and ethicists might one day actually be able to demonstrate that morality is in fact objective. A deontological assessment of human interactions.

All I suggest here is that the arguments need to be brought down out of the theoretical clouds and intertwined in actual flesh and blood human relationships: "we'll need a context".

[phyllo]

The topic of discussion on this thread is nihilism.

You started saying a bunch of nonsense about Buddhism.

I only responded to that.

[iambiguous]

Corrected in regard to what? I point out that any number of religions revolve precisely around moral commandments, immortality and salvation. Around connecting the dots between the behaviors, you choose on this side of the grave and, as a result of that, the fate of "I" on the other side.

That's the gist of it.

You believe that you already understand religion. You believe that you know the characteristics of "any number" of religions. You believe that Buddhism is just like Evangelical Christianity, as are other religions. You don't think that any of your beliefs need correcting.

No, that's you insisting this is what I believe. My own understanding of religion [like yours] is rooted existentially in dasein. And what I am most interested in is not how religious communities describe their "characteristics", but the extent to which they are able to demonstrate that their own God or spiritual path is the real deal. Convince me of that [even if it's not true] and I'm in. No more fractured and fragmented value judgments. Immortality and salvation instead of oblivion.

And what particular Buddhists might share in common with particular Christians and all other religious denominations is this: become "one of us"...or else.

As for corrections, my whole point is that in the absence of God there are no objectively correct behaviors. There are only pros and cons rooted historically, culturally and experientially in ever evolving contexts...sets of circumstances that are bursting at seams [at times] with contingency, chance, and change.

Start here: https://www.procon.org/

I challenge anyone to choose an issue and note which side's arguments are all objectively correct.

[phyllo]

And what particular Buddhists might share in common with particular Christians and all other religious denominations is this: become "one of us"...or else.

Prove it.

Oh, and I did notice that you included the word 'might' . "Might share in common" doesn't commit you to anything.

[iambiguous]

And what particular Buddhists might share in common with particular Christians and all other religious denominations is this: become "one of us"...or else.

Prove it.

Oh, and I did notice that you included the word 'might' . "Might share in common" doesn't commit you to anything.

Back to this: huh?

Do or do not any number of folks here -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions -- make the claim that moral commandments, immortality and salvation are available only to those who are on the One True Path?

Their own.

More to the point [mine] when will one of them manage to prove their own path is the only path available if you value your...soul?

And sure "might". After all, there are any number of folks who embrace a more ecumenical approach to religion.

[Iwannaplato]

And what I am most interested in is not how religious communities describe their "characteristics", but the extent to which they are able to demonstrate that their own God or spiritual path is the real deal.

Then there's no need to make up stuff about the religion. You can merely request the proof that the path does what is claimed it does by the religious person or group.

And what particular Buddhists might share in common with particular Christians and all other religious denominations is this: become "one of us"...or else.

And now you've shifted from saying they have this position to saying they might share in common with particular Chrisitians. So, when it's pointed out you're making stuff up, instead of admitting directly that you presented something as fact which is more like speculation, on your part, you change the wording, later, without admitting anything.

But good to note that you can actually change.

As for corrections, my whole point is that in the absence of God there are no objectively correct behaviors. There are only pros and cons rooted historically, culturally and experientially in ever evolving contexts...sets of circumstances that are bursting at seams [at times] with contingency, chance, and change.

To make that point you don't have to make up stuff about the religions or the religious.

[Iwannaplato]

And what particular Buddhists might share in common with particular Christians and all other religious denominations is this: become "one of us"...or else.

Prove it.

Oh, and I did notice that you included the word 'might' . "Might share in common" doesn't commit you to anything.

Back to this: huh?

Do or do not any number of folks here -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions -- make the claim that moral commandments, immortality and salvation are available only to those who are on the One True Path?

So, Phyllo is focused on Iambiguous' false presentation of Buddhism, and Iambiguous asks the above question? First, it doesn't make sense - the moral commandments are available only to those who are on the One True Path? Two, it suddenly shifts the topic from Buddhism to are there any number of religious and spiritual traditions that do those things`?

Let's grant that he's correct in his implicit assertion here....so what? that 'any number' do this doesn't respond to Phyllo's point.

Their own.

More to the point [mine] when will one of them manage to prove their own path is the only path available if you value your...soul?

And sure "might". After all, there are any number of folks who embrace a more ecumenical approach to religion.

Which is not where he began. If he could have managed to start with 'might' the issue wouldn't have come up.

[Iwannaplato]

Do or do not any number of folks here -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions -- make the claim that moral commandments, immortality and salvation are available only to those who are on the One True Path?

Let's take another look at this. And I'd like to say also, just for context, I don't really like Buddhism. It's not for me. But there's no need to make up stuff about it or conflate it with other religions.
The above quote is a response to Phyllo focusing on Iambiguous' statements about Buddhism

Buddhism either 1) has no immortality or 2) everything is immortal, depending on what you are thinking of as continuing perpetually. In Christianity, the individual soul can go to Hell or Heaven - at least in most versions of Christianity. In Buddhism there is anatma, no individual soul. So, there is NOTHING like the Christian immortality of the individual.

Further no one can be bad, not follow moral commandments in Buddhism and through this lose immortality or lose nirvana. That aggregate - that entity that is not a being with a soul - will continue as a cluster longer than some entity that gets Enlightened. But there are no selves in Buddhism. EVerything goes on, period.

Further the goal is NOT to be reborn, if anything. To dissolve. To stop believing, in the Western sense, that one has a self and exists. What Iambiguous is afraid of losing (as are most people), his life, his self, never existed in the first place, in Buddhism.

So, Iambiguous is projecting Christian ideas on a belief-system that is radically different. He may well know or have known some Buddhists, but either they were very confused or he didn't really learn much from them about Buddhism.

And it is precisely false to claim that Buddhism sees some great things that you must be in Buddhism to have or attain.

And then there are the direct statements of leaders in Buddhism - note that many if not most Westerners these days are getting their Buddhism via the people below and or people who came to Buddhism via the people below. It's not some minor portion of Buddhism.

The Dalai Lama (Tenzin Gyatso)
The 14th Dalai Lama is well-known for his inclusive views on religious harmony and the validity of various spiritual paths.

Quote: "I always say that it is much better to have a variety of religions, a variety of philosophies, rather than one single religion or philosophy. This is necessary because of the different mental dispositions of each human being. Each religion has certain unique ideas or techniques, and learning about them can only enrich one's own faith."

And if you consider that he is utterly central to the entire Tibetan Buddhist world, this is more or less Tibetan Buddhist Doctrine.

Thich Nhat Hanh
Thich Nhat Hanh, a Vietnamese Zen Buddhist monk, has often spoken about the interconnectedness of different spiritual traditions.

Quote: "There are many ways to the top of the mountain, but the view is always the same."

Ajahn Brahm (Phra Brahmavamso)
Ajahn Brahm, a British-Australian Theravada Buddhist monk, also emphasizes the value of different spiritual traditions.

Quote: "I think it's important to respect other people's paths. If you think that only your religion is right and all the others are wrong, you can easily fall into the trap of intolerance. The world is made of many different types of people who have various ways of looking at life, and that's something to celebrate, not denigrate."

Jack Kornfield
Jack Kornfield, a prominent American Buddhist teacher and author, often discusses the commonalities among different spiritual traditions.

Quote: "We need to hold the teachings of the different spiritual paths as complements to one another. Each offers unique practices and insights that can enrich our understanding and our practice."
Source: From his book "The Wise Heart: A Guide to the Universal Teachings of Buddhist Psychology."

Pema Chödrön
Pema Chödrön, an American Tibetan Buddhist nun, emphasizes the importance of compassion and understanding across different faiths.

Quote: "Compassion is not a relationship between the healer and the wounded. It’s a relationship between equals. Only when we know our own darkness well can we be present with the darkness of others. Compassion becomes real when we recognize our shared humanity."
Source: From her book "The Places That Scare You: A Guide to Fearlessness in Difficult Times."

Bhikkhu Bodhi
Bhikkhu Bodhi, an American Theravada Buddhist monk, speaks to the universality of ethical teachings across religions.

Quote: "At the ethical level, the great spiritual traditions of humanity converge. The principles of love, compassion, and integrity are shared by all the major religions. These principles are the foundation for a more peaceful and just world."
Source: From various writings and talks.

Matthieu Ricard
Matthieu Ricard, a Tibetan Buddhist monk, and author, discusses the convergence of spiritual wisdom.

Quote: "The teachings of the world's great spiritual traditions are like different rivers that ultimately flow into the same ocean. They all aim to bring us closer to the profound truth of our being and the nature of reality."
Source: From his book "Happiness: A Guide to Developing Life's Most Important Skill."

Lama Surya Das
Lama Surya Das, an American lama in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, emphasizes interfaith respect.

Quote: "Each religion has its own unique value, beauty, and wisdom. By appreciating and learning from different traditions, we can enrich our own spiritual practice and deepen our understanding of the human experience."

Surce: From his book "Awakening the Buddha Within."

Joseph Goldstein
Joseph Goldstein, a meditation teacher and author, speaks to the universality of spiritual insights.

Quote: "The insights and wisdom found in different spiritual traditions are not mutually exclusive but rather complementary. Each offers unique perspectives and practices that can lead us to a deeper understanding of ourselves and the world."
Source: From his book "Insight Meditation: The Practice of Freedom."

Gil Fronsdal
Gil Fronsdal, a teacher in the Vipassana and Zen traditions, discusses the value of diverse spiritual practices.

Quote: "The diversity of spiritual practices across different traditions can be seen as various expressions of a universal quest for truth and liberation. We can learn a great deal from each other."
Source: From various talks and writings.

Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo, a Tibetan Buddhist nun, highlights the shared goals of different religions.

Quote: "The ultimate goal of all genuine spiritual paths is the same: to transcend our limited self and realize our true nature. Different religions offer different methods, but the destination is one."
Source: From her book "Reflections on a Mountain Lake."

Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche
Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche, a Tibetan Buddhist teacher, speaks to the shared human values in religions.

Quote: "All religions teach us about the importance of love, compassion, and kindness. These universal values can help us create a more harmonious and understanding world."
Source: From his book "Running with the Mind of Meditation."

Anam Thubten
Anam Thubten, a Tibetan Buddhist teacher, emphasizes the unity of spiritual wisdom.

Quote: "The wisdom of all true spiritual paths ultimately leads to the same realization: the interconnectedness of all life and the inherent compassion within us."
Source: From his book "No Self, No Problem."

Tara Brach
Tara Brach, a Buddhist psychologist and teacher, acknowledges the transformative power of all spiritual traditions.

Quote: "Every spiritual tradition offers pathways to awakening, to discovering the love and awareness that is our true nature. By honoring the diversity of these paths, we can find what resonates most deeply with our own hearts."
Source: From her book "Radical Acceptance."

[Iwannaplato]

And then you have formal statements of large Buddhist organizations....

1. International Buddhist Confederation (IBC)
The IBC has made formal statements emphasizing the value of interfaith dialogue and cooperation.

Quote: "The International Buddhist Confederation seeks to bring together diverse Buddhist traditions and engage with other religious communities to promote mutual understanding and peace. By fostering dialogue and collaboration, we acknowledge the validity and importance of various spiritual paths."
Source: International Buddhist Confederation’s mission statement and event summaries on their official website​ (IBC World)​.
2. World Fellowship of Buddhists (WFB)
The WFB has been involved in various interfaith activities and has issued statements promoting religious harmony.

Quote: "The World Fellowship of Buddhists recognizes the wisdom and compassion present in all great religious traditions. We believe that interfaith dialogue and cooperation are essential for global peace and understanding."
Source: Statements made during the WFB general conferences and interfaith meetings, as reported on their official website and related documents​ (WABHQ)​.
3. Network of Buddhist Organisations (NBO)
The NBO has been active in interfaith dialogue and has issued statements supporting the validity of other religious paths.

Quote: "The NBO is committed to fostering interfaith understanding and cooperation. We respect and acknowledge the diverse ways in which people seek spiritual fulfillment and believe that all major religions can contribute to the moral and spiritual development of humanity."
Source: Network of Buddhist Organisations’ code of conduct and interfaith initiatives documentation​ (Wikipedia)​.
4. European Buddhist Union (EBU)
The EBU actively promotes interfaith dialogue and collaboration among different religious traditions in Europe.

Quote: "The European Buddhist Union supports interfaith dialogue as a means to promote peace and mutual respect. We acknowledge the validity of various spiritual paths and encourage collaboration among different religious communities to address common challenges."
Source: Statements made at EBU conferences and interfaith events, documented on their official website and publications​ (The Pluralism Project)​.

[phyllo]

Thank you for posting all that information.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Notification

I will be giving a talk, in Esperanto, on ecumenism at 3:00 PM today. Sign up early. Mandatory donation $59.99

[promethean75]

the jacobi came over and he said 'I'm outta sight'. He said for a nominal service charge, i could reach nirvana tonight. If i was ready, willing and able, to pay him his regular fee, he would drop all the rest of his pressing affairs and devote his attention to me... but i said