The Existential Crisis

[Age]

I was just looking at some past posts by Bob Evenson for laughs, and I happened to see something that Ken/Age said years ago...

Anyway here are my experiences; only on reflection 'i suffered', but in the moment, as a child, i never thought i was suffering. To me that was just how life was.

In contrast to his current claims...

ALL of 'you' CAUSE the 'hell-like' conditions that children are living and suffering in 'now'.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO 'contrast' AT ALL here.

What, supposed, "contrast" are you "seeing"?

But children ONLY 'suffer' from what 'you' adult human beings do.

This just REAFFIRMS MORE what I have previously stated, and is in NO WAY a 'contrast' of any sorts.

Ken/Age seems to have become more fanatical and spun up over the years.

What EXACTLY do you see is 'it' that you ASSUME i am "more fanatical and spun up over" EXACTLY?

Truly, children appear to accept how life is -- and they do not think of it as suffering. It is only adults reflecting back who assign their ideas and stories and accusations onto it. In the moment -- which is where children exist -- the Universe is flowing and unfolding. It is an adventure to play with. Even if sometimes wild. This can be an interesting state of being/awareness to practice as an adult. And it seems naturally accessible for anyone to tune into any moment (if they want to) -- no stories or religions or certain steps required.

And, this is EXACTLY what I have been SAYING.

LISTEN, do you KNOW that your parents/guardians abused you?

If no, then you were NOT suffering. You were just living in the moment.

If, however, you KNEW your parents/guardians were abusing you, then you were suffering.

'you', now as an adult can "justify" to your own 'self' that you just live 'in the moment' and are NOT abusing children, in the moment, and that the way you are abusing and mistreating children is "just the Universe flowing and unfolding". You can even "justify" to your own 'self' that your ABUSIVE behaviors towards children is "just an adventure to play with", BUT, you are just 'fooling' your own 'self', only.

Your OWN 'story' is just made up of delusion, excuses, and blaming, and is NOT a True reflection of 'Reality', Itself. Or, do you actually BELIEVE that your own made up story of 'Reality' is actually True, Right, and Correct?

[Age]

Lacewing wrote:

T

ruly, children appear to accept how life is -- and they do not think of it as suffering. It is only adults reflecting back who assign their ideas and stories and accusations onto it. In the moment -- which is where children exist -- the Universe is flowing and unfolding. It is an adventure to play with. Even if sometimes wild.

Children as young as five or six had to work as coal miners and the bigger ones be harnessed to coal trucks and crawl into spaces where adults could not go. Some of these children's comments have been preserved verbatim and these children judged and were able to judge what was suffering.They wished they could play instead.

Is there a child on the whole earth who would NOT prefer to play, have fun, and/or enjoy life rather than do the chores/work, which adults MAKE THEM do?

In fact, is there an adult on earth who would NOT prefer to 'play', have fun, and/or enjoy life rather than do chores/work that they, themselves, tell and fool their selves into BELIEVING 'have to' be done, and 'need' doing?

See, what adults tell themselves and BELIEVE can be and is very frequently VERY DIFFERENT indeed from what is the actual Truth of Reality, Itself.

[Lacewing]

Lacewing wrote:

Truly, children appear to accept how life is -- and they do not think of it as suffering. It is only adults reflecting back who assign their ideas and stories and accusations onto it. In the moment -- which is where children exist -- the Universe is flowing and unfolding. It is an adventure to play with. Even if sometimes wild.

Children as young as five or six had to work as coal miners and the bigger ones be harnessed to coal trucks and crawl into spaces where adults could not go. Some of these children's comments have been preserved verbatim and these children judged and were able to judge what was suffering.They wished they could play instead.

Children thought of it as suffering? Or did they think of it as scary, terrible, painful, etc. in the moment? I don't think children stand back and say, "Hey, I'm suffering here!" It doesn't seem to be a concept they use. They appear ready to live each new day and moment as it arrives and they are very resilient. It appears to me (and I remember for myself) that they're living in the moment in a different way than adults.

[Lacewing]

Truly, children appear to accept how life is -- and they do not think of it as suffering. It is only adults reflecting back who assign their ideas and stories and accusations onto it. In the moment -- which is where children exist -- the Universe is flowing and unfolding. It is an adventure to play with. Even if sometimes wild. This can be an interesting state of being/awareness to practice as an adult. And it seems naturally accessible for anyone to tune into any moment (if they want to) -- no stories or religions or certain steps required.

That is a romanticized and very dangerous view of the reality.

You are misunderstanding the context of what I'm saying in response to Age.

All of a child's life is determined by adults.

Of course. I didn't say otherwise.

Many children suffer terrible lives at the hands of their own parents.

From our adult perspective, yes. I'm talking about the child's perspective. You can see what I responded to Belinda.

I am not disagreeing that children may have horrible lives, but they experience it differently -- and think about it differently -- than adults do. Adults add the thoughts of drama and suffering. I had my own horrific childhood -- abused and beaten -- and I remember how I felt and what I thought. I did not identify it as suffering. It was life being delivered in each moment, and I dealt with each moment as it came. I was often focused on just making it to the next moment. Now that I'm an adult I'm pissed about it -- but that's different than the child's perspective I'm talking about. They are living in the moment. I don't think there is a concept of suffering when someone is more aligned with living in the moment. Every moment is brand new: things can and do shift, and there are fewer stories created.

[Belinda]

Lacewing wrote:

Truly, children appear to accept how life is -- and they do not think of it as suffering. It is only adults reflecting back who assign their ideas and stories and accusations onto it. In the moment -- which is where children exist -- the Universe is flowing and unfolding. It is an adventure to play with. Even if sometimes wild.

Children as young as five or six had to work as coal miners and the bigger ones be harnessed to coal trucks and crawl into spaces where adults could not go. Some of these children's comments have been preserved verbatim and these children judged and were able to judge what was suffering.They wished they could play instead.

Children thought of it as suffering? Or did they think of it as scary, terrible, painful, etc. in the moment? I don't think children stand back and say, "Hey, I'm suffering here!" It doesn't seem to be a concept they use. They appear ready to live each new day and moment as it arrives and they are very resilient. It appears to me (and I remember for myself) that they're living in the moment in a different way than adults.

Yes, the children both believed they were suffering, and also felt they were suffering. In these terrible circumstances when human beings had to endure conditions as bad or worse than labouring animals the working adults had time to work and sleep no time to think about their rights. As for their futures, they did not expect to live long, or to have their suffering alleviated.

Testimony of Coal Workers. Children's Employment Commission.1840 .

1842

Britain had a long tradition of agricultural child labour, in which children were most often employed to scare crows or lead animals to pasture. With the rise of industrialisation, and particularly the development of coalmining, more children began entering the workforce at an earlier age. Children were on average five times cheaper to employ than adults, and were expected to work the same hours – which, in mining communities, could mean a 14-hour day. The Commission also uncovered many cases in which children had been used to climb into the workings of industrial machinery to clear a jam, sometimes with fatal consequences.

The Commission was established Anthony Ashley Cooper, the 7th Earl of Shaftesbury, with the report compiled by Richard Henry Horne, a friend of Charles Dickens and sometime contributor to Dickens’s Daily News. The report inspired protest literature from the likes of Benjamin Disraeli, Elizabeth Gaskell, Elizabeth Barrett Browning ('The Cry of the Children') and Dickens himself – most notably in A Christmas Carol.

Full title:The Condition and Treatment of the Children employed in the Mines and Colliers of the United Kingdom Carefully compiled from the appendix to the first report of the Commissioners With copious extracts from the evidence, and illustrative engravingsPublished:1842, LondonFormat:Parliamentary document / Illustration / ImageCreator:Great Britain Commissioners for Inquiring into the Employment and Condition of Children in Mines and ManufactoriesUsage termsPublic DomainHeld byBritish LibraryShelfmark:1509/353.
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Discovering Literature: Romantics & Victorians

[Lacewing]

Children thought of it as suffering? Or did they think of it as scary, terrible, painful, etc. in the moment? I don't think children stand back and say, "Hey, I'm suffering here!" It doesn't seem to be a concept they use. They appear ready to live each new day and moment as it arrives and they are very resilient. It appears to me (and I remember for myself) that they're living in the moment in a different way than adults.

Yes, the children both believed they were suffering, and also felt they were suffering. In these terrible circumstances when human beings had to endure conditions as bad or worse than labouring animals the working adults had time to work and sleep no time to think about their rights. As for their futures, they did not expect to live long, or to have their suffering alleviated.

Testimony of Coal Workers. Children's Employment Commission.1840 .

Okay, I can see exceptions to everything. Do you think that most abused children think they are suffering?

[Belinda]

Children thought of it as suffering? Or did they think of it as scary, terrible, painful, etc. in the moment? I don't think children stand back and say, "Hey, I'm suffering here!" It doesn't seem to be a concept they use. They appear ready to live each new day and moment as it arrives and they are very resilient. It appears to me (and I remember for myself) that they're living in the moment in a different way than adults.

Yes, the children both believed they were suffering, and also felt they were suffering. In these terrible circumstances when human beings had to endure conditions as bad or worse than labouring animals the working adults had time to work and sleep no time to think about their rights. As for their futures, they did not expect to live long, or to have their suffering alleviated.

Testimony of Coal Workers. Children's Employment Commission.1840 .

Okay, I can see exceptions to everything. Do you think that most abused children think they are suffering?

It depends what you mean by "think". You and I conceptualise according to our age, education , and experience of the world. A young child cannot conceptualise like most adults. An abused child might conceive of the idea that what she or he has experienced is normal. But knowledge is more than concepts. To know something is to be sensible of it. An abused child is sensible of pain and deprivation. A child may not be old enough or experienced enough to form an intellectual concept of pain and deprivation, but he or she feels it. Feeling or 'sensibility' is one sort of knowing: conceptualising is another sort of knowing.

[Lacewing]

Okay, I can see exceptions to everything. Do you think that most abused children think they are suffering?

It depends what you mean by "think". You and I conceptualise according to our age, education , and experience of the world. A young child cannot conceptualise like most adults. An abused child might conceive of the idea that what she or he has experienced is normal. But knowledge is more than concepts. To know something is to be sensible of it. An abused child is sensible of pain and deprivation. A child may not be old enough or experienced enough to form an intellectual concept of pain and deprivation, but he or she feels it. Feeling or 'sensibility' is one sort of knowing: conceptualising is another sort of knowing.

Yes, "conceptualise" is a good way to describe what I mean by my use of the word "think" in regard to what I'm saying about children here, thank you.

[surreptitious57]

See what adults tell themselves and BELIEVE can be and is very frequently VERY DIFFERENT indeed from what is the actual Truth of Reality

What is the actual truth of reality ? And can you give some specific examples ?
How have you managed to acquire it and no one else or do others know it too ?

[Age]

Lacewing wrote:

Truly, children appear to accept how life is -- and they do not think of it as suffering. It is only adults reflecting back who assign their ideas and stories and accusations onto it. In the moment -- which is where children exist -- the Universe is flowing and unfolding. It is an adventure to play with. Even if sometimes wild.

Children as young as five or six had to work as coal miners and the bigger ones be harnessed to coal trucks and crawl into spaces where adults could not go. Some of these children's comments have been preserved verbatim and these children judged and were able to judge what was suffering.They wished they could play instead.

Children thought of it as suffering? Or did they think of it as scary, terrible, painful, etc. in the moment?

To me, children do NOT think of 'it' as suffering. Children have emotive feelings during experiences. If the experiences, which children are made to endure and do NOT want, then they ARE 'suffering'. Again, children, to me, do NOT think, "I am suffering". Children can suffer, without knowing that they are necessarily 'suffering'.

I don't think children stand back and say, "Hey, I'm suffering here!"

I do NOT think this also. As I have clearly expressed above, and by providing some of my own actual experiences to SHOW this.

It doesn't seem to be a concept they use.

Until children are exposed to, or are taught, the concept of 'suffering', then OBVIOUSLY it would NOT be a concept that they would use. This fact goes for absolutely EVERY 'concept', and for absolutely EVERY human being.

They appear ready to live each new day and moment as it arrives and they are very resilient.

Well that is one self-"justification" that adults use to allow them self to do absolutely ANY thing they like upon a child.

From what I have observed children are very ready to live each new day, and even each new second for that matter, and moment, as it arrives. To me, children are also very resilient, BUT, this does NOT mean that adults can then do whatever they like to children and in front of children. Children are far MORE INTELLIGENT than adults have become, but this means adults NEED TO BE extremely cautious in how they behave in front of children and especially towards children. That is, IF adults really do want the best for children. Adults thinking they can do whatever they like because 'children are resilient' is one of the reasons why the 'world' in which human beings are living in now, when this is being written, is in such a quick downhill spiral to self-destruction.

It appears to me (and I remember for myself) that they're living in the moment in a different way than adults.

Children live in the moment in a different way than adults do because children live in and with the True Life/Existence/Reality, Itself. Whereas, adults use their existence to TAKE as much as they can FROM Life, Itself, in order to make up their own personal, little, individual truth and reality.

Very young children just live in Truth and Reality, the 'True world'. But, sadly, because the very young are so INTELLIGENT they quickly learn from adults, and so children are continually learning to, and gradually are forming, their own truth and reality, which on far to many occasions is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what is actually True and Real.

[RCSaunders]

Many children suffer terrible lives at the hands of their own parents.

From our adult perspective, yes. I'm talking about the child's perspective. ...

A normal child knows when it is suffering. They might not be able to describe or understand it in adult terms, which if anything only makes it more terrifying, because they not only have the pain and torment but have no way of dealing with it.

A child may think that suffering is, "normal," (though it's doubtful they would have any conception of normality) or simply believe it's the way life is, but only an abnormal child would not be aware of suffering. If they are not conscious of suffering they have some kind of neurological defect.

Every abused child I know lives in perpetual hope of escape or relief for their torment.

I'm not sure how you come to your views, but you may be mistaking the fact pain, discomfort, and difficulty are simply aspects of reality that everyone experiences and are not childhood abuse and suffering. Scraped knees, and broken bones, cramps from long exercise, discomfort, frights, and dissappointments are not suffering. They are a part of everyone's life.

Being whipped or beaten by an adult, any intentional physical, emotional, or sexual abuse, deprivation of food or water, or being confined like an animal are suffering. Children know the difference.

[Age]

Truly, children appear to accept how life is -- and they do not think of it as suffering. It is only adults reflecting back who assign their ideas and stories and accusations onto it. In the moment -- which is where children exist -- the Universe is flowing and unfolding. It is an adventure to play with. Even if sometimes wild. This can be an interesting state of being/awareness to practice as an adult. And it seems naturally accessible for anyone to tune into any moment (if they want to) -- no stories or religions or certain steps required.

That is a romanticized and very dangerous view of the reality.

You are misunderstanding the context of what I'm saying in response to Age.

This 'misunderstanding' of what one is actually saying, AND MEANING, seems to be a very consistent 'problem'/issue with and between human beings.

I have suggested a solution, which I found works extremely well, to solving/fixing this 'problem'/issue. One day this suggestion may be taken up, and when it does, ONLY THEN we will SEE if it works or not.

All of a child's life is determined by adults.

Of course. I didn't say otherwise.

But you appeared to be 'trying to' argue against me, or at least be disagreeing with me, when I said that the suffering of children is caused solely by adults.

Many children suffer terrible lives at the hands of their own parents.

From our adult perspective, yes. I'm talking about the child's perspective. You can see what I responded to Belinda.

What would you call 'it', from a child's perspective, when they have to endure constant or any abuse, which they HATE and do NOT WANT?

You can see what I responded to you, in what you responded to "belinda".

If we want to agree that children do not say things like, "I am suffering", when they are 'suffering', BEFORE they learn what the concept of 'suffering' actually IS, just like they would NOT say some thing like, "I have to endure", whey they have to 'endure' things, BEFORE they learn what the concept of 'enduring' actually IS. But, if we are going to agree on this fact, then what is 'it' we are going to call what children experience/feel when they are experiencing/feeling 'things', which they OBVIOUSLY do NOT WANT or HATE, and HAVE TO experience/feel, as they have absolutely NO CHOICE in what is happening TO THEM?

I am not disagreeing that children may have horrible lives, but they experience it differently -- and think about it differently -- than adults do.

Absolutely EVERY human being thinks DIFFERENTLY.

But, if children do have HORRIBLE LIVES, which VERY MANY OF THEM DO, then how would 'you' like to refer to these HORRIBLE LIVES if it is NOT 'suffering', TO THEM?

How do you propose these children, who experience 'HORRIBLE LIVES', actually SEE or VIEW their lives if it is NOT 'suffering'?

What word would 'you' use for these types of lives if it is NOT 'suffering' to, and for, them?

How do 'you' perceive these children perceive these experiences if it is NOT 'suffering'?

Also, did 'you' have ANY experiences at all where you HAD TO 'suffer'?

If yes, then how would you phrase those experiences when you were the child during those experiences?

But, if you never had ANY experiences like that, then that might be why it is so hard for you to now see that some children actually CAN and DO 'suffer'.

Adults add the thoughts of drama and suffering.

Is this is a bit like how 'you' add the thoughts of 'must', 'need', and 'have to' when you do into my sentences when I do NOT use, nor even think, these thoughts AT ALL.

Children may NOT YET have gained the thoughts, and concepts, of 'drama' and 'suffering', but this certainly does NOT mean that children are NOT experiencing these things, under certain circumstances.

Are you really under some sort of illusion that children do NOT 'suffer' when they are forced to live HORRIBLE LIVES?

If you, then you better come up with some very logically reasoned explanations here. What exactly do you think or believe these children experience if it is NOT 'suffering'?

What is the explanation you would use for the "different" thinking that they have than adults have?

I had my own horrific childhood -- abused and beaten -- and I remember how I felt and what I thought.

Okay. Now was it constant, or just one off occurrences?

How did you feel?

What were the actual thoughts?

Did you enjoy or want it at all?

I did not identify it as suffering.

Ah, now we are getting down to it.

So, because 'you', individually did NOT identify it as suffering, then is that why you consider children, in reference to ALL children, do NOT suffer?

As I have said and pointed out previously, EVERY human being does NOT identify any thing, that is; UNTIL they have been shown, exposed to, and/or taught the 'concept' of 'it'.

It was life being delivered in each moment, and I dealt with each moment as it came.

This 'life' that 'you' are living in now, when this is being written, which is a 'war-torn, greedy, pollution-riddled, and stressful life' is life being delivered in each moment to 'you', and you deal with each moment as it comes, in 'your way'.

You do NOT identify with A Truly 'peaceful and harmonious life' YET, because you have NOT YET been shown, exposed to, and/or taught this 'concept' of 'it' YET. But when 'you' do, if you do, then you will identify DIFFERENTLY, obviously.

Just like children do NOT identify with 'suffering' do NOT identify with 'suffering' UNTIL they learn this 'concept'. But, if, to 'you', children are NOT 'suffering', from adults concept of 'suffering', during those HORRIBLE EXPERIENCES while the children are FORCED to experience, then what EXACTLY is 'it' then?

I was often focused on just making it to the next moment.

But WHY?

If you were, supposedly, NOT 'suffering', then WHY focus on 'just making it to the next moment'?

Why NOT just 'stay in the moment'? You were saying earlier, and maybe 'trying to' argue earlier, that children appear ready to live each new day and moment as it arrives and they are very resilient. If you were REALLY "ready to" live each moment as it arrives, as you said earlier, then WHY 'focus on making it to the next moment'?

Why NOT just 'stay in the moment'?

Could you have been 'suffering', but just had NOT YET learned, and thus gained, the words and/or concepts to 'use' YET?

Now that I'm an adult I'm pissed about it -- but that's different than the child's perspective I'm talking about.

And the perspective 'you' might and/or will have in a week or two or next year or a decade from now most likely will be a bit different than the one you had when you wrote this thread.

Perspective is a continually changing/evolving thing.

Also, what EXACTLY are pissed about now, as an adult?

if you did NOT 'suffer' back then, then what is there REALLY to be 'pissed' about?

They are living in the moment.

EVERY thing is living in the moment.

Older human beings, however, think about and/or imagine other things than the moment.

I don't think there is a concept of suffering when someone is more aligned with living in the moment.

But this appears to contradict what you said earlier, in regards to how you 'focused on just making it to the next moment', when you were being abused and beaten.

Do you REALLY BELIEVE that if you were more aligned with living in the moment, when you were in the moment of being abused and beaten, instead of 'focusing on just making it to the next moment', then there would, if not been less suffering, then there would have been more peace and happiness?

Seems very contradictory to me. Can you and will you explain this apparent contradiction?

Every moment is brand new: things can and do shift, and there are fewer stories created.

So, if you just remained in, and focused on the, moment ONLY, when you were being abused and beaten, then do you really think or believe that you would have been fewer stories created, from the one that you have created here?

Do you really think or believe that you would not have created this story, which you have now, about you being abused and beaten if you just remained in that moment? 'you', as a child, were very 'resilient' correct?

You 'should have', and would have, gotten over this experience if you just stayed in and lived in the moment, without focusing on any thing else correct?

See, there are few things here, which 'you', human beings, have NOT YET learned thus have NOT YET 'understood' into how the brain works and how 'thoughts', themselves, are passed on and into children in the most unsuspecting and subliminal ways. This is because of HOW children LOOK AT and SEE the 'world' through the Truly OPEN Mind, far more than adults do. Once this is far better 'understood', then the rest all becomes very OBVIOUS.

By the way, there is still are far more to learn and 'understand', which ALL turns into being Self-explanatory when ALL-OF-THIS is FULLY understood.

[Age]

See what adults tell themselves and BELIEVE can be and is very frequently VERY DIFFERENT indeed from what is the actual Truth of Reality

What is the actual truth of reality ?

To answer this, properly and correctly, for you, I will need to know what is the definition of the words 'truth' and 'reality' here, to you, first.

EVERY one can have and use different definitions of words, which is the very reason WHY what human beings tell themselves and BELIEVE is true can be frequently VERY DIFFERENT from what the actual Truth of Reality IS. See, what thee actual Truth of Reality IS, is what EVERY one agrees with.

And can you give some specific examples ?

I can only give you some specific examples from the perspective of 'me' and from how I specifically define and use words, which obviously may not yet be comprehensible and understandable by 'you', from the perspective of 'you' and from how you specifically define and use the same words.

How have you managed to acquire it and no one else or do others know it too ?

Just because I came to realize and/or understand that 'truth' is always only depended upon, or relative to, 'agreement'. So, it then logically followed that 'whatever EVERY one agrees with' would then be thee actual Truth of 'things'. Obviously, if EVERY one is in agreement, and there is NO one who could disagree, then what 'it' is, which EVERY one is in agreement with would naturally be thee actual Truth, Itself.

Now, 'reality' is also depended upon, or relative to, as well, this time to perceptions. So, only what EVERY one observes or sees, from ALL perspectives, would then be Reality, Itself.

Therefore, what thee actual Truth of Reality is what EVERY one SEES, and agrees with.

ALL-OF-THIS can be further EVIDENCED and PROVEN True with verifiable evidence and logical reasoning. But, I think we are still a bit of a ways from that stage just yet. Although some, like 'you', "surreptitious57", are showing that 'you' are a lot closer than "others" are.

By the way, why did you bold the question marks here?

This might be a good tactic to use to emphasize the very fact that absolutely EVERY time I use a question mark I am actually asking a question WANTING it to be answered, as OPENLY and as Honestly as can be, and preferably with absolutely NO presumptions being made in regards to what I am actually asking for nor in regards to that I am actually saying some thing. The ONLY reason I ask questions is to have them answered with NO presumption at all be made. Although, I am FULLY aware that this is a bit to much to ask for, in the days of when this is being written.

By the way, a hint as to what 'Reality' actually IS can be found in the, proper and correct, answer to the question; Is this 'world', or this 'way of living', which 'you', human beings, are living in now, when this is being written, Reality, Itself?

[Age]

Many children suffer terrible lives at the hands of their own parents.

From our adult perspective, yes. I'm talking about the child's perspective. ...

A normal child knows when it is suffering. They might not be able to describe or understand it in adult terms, which if anything only makes it more terrifying, because they not only have the pain and torment but have no way of dealing with it.

A child may think that suffering is, "normal," (though it's doubtful they would have any conception of normality) or simply believe it's the way life is, but only an abnormal child would not be aware of suffering. If they are not conscious of suffering they have some kind of neurological defect.

Are you aware that because young children are SO INTELLIGENT that they have the ability to learn how to BLOCK their feelings so that then they then are not consciously aware of the 'suffering', which they are having to go through at the "hands of abuse"?

I would NOT call these children "abnormal" NOR what I say that they have a "neurological defect" at all. I would just say that these children are dealing with abuse the best way they can. EVERY child 'deals with abuse' in their own personal way. Just because some might deal with this in very different ways than "others" do, I would certainly NEVER call 'a child' "abnormal" because they do things differently.

What I would, however, call and say IS 'abnormal' is the behavior of 'abusing children', although EVERY adult is guilty of this WRONG, and thus NOT RIGHT, or ABNORMAL behavior.

Abusing children MIGHT BE "normal", in the sense that EVERY adult in the days of when this is being written, abuses children and that prior to these days EVERY adult was abused as a child, but this is CERTAINLY NOT 'normal' behavior in the days, which are very soon to come, where EVERY one lives together in peace AND in harmony, as One.

Every abused child I know lives in perpetual hope of escape or relief for their torment.

I can SEE here that there is still a LOT TO LEARN and UNDERSTAND in regards to 'abuse', and especially in regards to 'child abuse'.

I'm not sure how you come to your views, but you may be mistaking the fact pain, discomfort, and difficulty are simply aspects of reality that everyone experiences and are not childhood abuse and suffering. Scraped knees, and broken bones, cramps from long exercise, discomfort, frights, and dissappointments are not suffering. They are a part of everyone's life.

Being whipped or beaten by an adult, any intentional physical, emotional, or sexual abuse, deprivation of food or water, or being confined like an animal are suffering. Children know the difference.

But what happens if it is 'unintentional' physical, emotional, mental, or sexual abuse, then do children NOT 'suffer'?

Are you saying that children do NOT know the difference then, when it is 'unintentional' abuse?

If children do NOT recognize NOR know the difference when it is 'unintentional' abuse, then this helps in explaining HOW and WHY adults do NOT recognize NOR even know when they are 'abusing children', themselves.

To me, 'abuse' is abuse, no matter if it is intentional or not. BOTH do damage and harm. Although, obviously is MORE WRONG, or BAD, compared to the other one. See, to me, ALL 'abuse' is WRONG. But, if there was NO 'intent' to hurt, harm, or damage "another" then that is NOT 'as bad' as to 'intentionally' cause hurt, harm, and/or damage.

[Belinda]

Young children can be sexualised before puberty, meaning they can become aware of sexual behaviour. Similarly young children can be made aware of death and dying, and lifelong, hopeless suffering.Often young children are shielded from these experiences. However shielding does not mean the child is incapable of forming a concept of sexual behaviour, suffering, or of death and dying.There is plenty of evidence from history and contemporary media of young children being sexualised or/and brutalised.

Children are subjected to all manner of experiences that socialise and inform them. This is education and happens at school and more informally in the family. Suffering is a fact of life, and becasue children are shielded from it does not mean they cannot conceptualise it. To compare a young child with a young puppy: each is usually born innocent of suffering but if the puppy experiences suffering the puppy will quickly learn people's feet are to be avoided at all times. Children learn similar concepts.

Memory is the basis for forming concepts, and primitive concepts are clumps of particular memories that form a more general memory. Memories are either immediate memories of own experiences, or secondary memories of what others say of experiences. Besides remembering their own suffering the young child is well able to understand secondary memories when these are told in child-appropriate language.