Philosophy Now Forum

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 2:08 pm I don't think that you even know what my answer(s) are.

Sure I do: complain about Israel, ignore Hamas, and refuse to speak about Russia and the Ukraine. It's kind of hard to miss.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 5:28 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 12:37 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 9:57 pm
Well, yes, if negotiation is going to be accepted and done in good faith. However, right now, it's the duty of Hamas to surrender, and not to shoot any more rockets, and not to dress as civilians, and not to keep their munitions in kindergartens, hospitals and mosques.

But how has that worked out?

It takes two sides to negotiate: not just one. So far, Hamas is not negotiating at all.

Hamas already said that they would accept the ceasefire if the aggression is completely stopped.

...and they broke the last ceasefire within 15 minutes. You can't bargain with people who will not keep their word, and who are sworn to kill you.

So what's your next plan?

There are two options here: (1) Continuing the war and (2) agreeing to peace. Israel shows that they are very keen to continue the war that is disastrous when it comes to killing civilians. I put Hamas in the same basket. One has to agree with a ceasefire to achieve peace later. Hamas offered a ceasefire based on terms and conditions. Israel won't accept it for whatever reason. I think it is the duty of a civil nation to favor peace over war. Don't you think?

Bahman: Hamas already said that they would accept the ceasefire if the aggression is completely stopped.

IC: and they broke the last ceasefire within 15 minutes. You can't bargain with people who will not keep their word, and who are sworn to kill you.

So what's your next plan?

The object of Hamas’ militancy is to mire Israel in a situation in which it is weakened and harmed. Basic aim of war. The first stated object: get Israel out of Gaza and the West Bank. Then, if possible, take back over Palestine proper.

That aim is the inverse, is it not, of Israel’s stated aim. Get rid of all all opposition (or ethnicities) that do not cooperate with its plan.

Gazans have suffered extreme retaliation for the attack of Oct 7. But Hamas is not losing. Apparently, the general Gazan will is to accept death and destruction in pursuit of the stated goals. Better to die on your feet than to live in subjugation they seem to say.

Attacks, ceasefires — these are strategic choices made by military commanders. They are negotiated for strategic purposes. Yet commanders do not lose sight of the larger objectives. Neither those of Israel nor those of Hamas (and the larger Islamic world).

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 5:33 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 2:08 pm I don't think that you even know what my answer(s) are.

Sure I do: complain about Israel, ignore Hamas, and refuse to speak about Russia and the Ukraine. It's kind of hard to miss.

Israel is doing the killing and destroying now. It's in their power to stop.

Hamas could also stop.

But Hamas is a bunch of terrorists while Israelis are supposedly very ethical.

So who ought not to kill innocent people? The ethical group or the unethical group?

Or let's face it, neither are ethical.

(Russia and Ukraine are not the topic.)

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 5:51 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 5:28 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 12:37 pm
Hamas already said that they would accept the ceasefire if the aggression is completely stopped.

...and they broke the last ceasefire within 15 minutes. You can't bargain with people who will not keep their word, and who are sworn to kill you.

So what's your next plan?

There are two options here: (1) Continuing the war and (2) agreeing to peace.

Hamas refuses number (2). So what do you suggest next?

Hamas offered a ceasefire based on terms and conditions. Israel won't accept it for whatever reason.

Israel accepted the ceasefire. Hamas took only 15 minutes to break it. What's next?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:06 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 5:51 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 5:28 pm
...and they broke the last ceasefire within 15 minutes. You can't bargain with people who will not keep their word, and who are sworn to kill you.

So what's your next plan?

There are two options here: (1) Continuing the war and (2) agreeing to peace.

Hamas refuses number (2). So what do you suggest next?

Hamas offered a ceasefire based on terms and conditions. Israel won't accept it for whatever reason.

Israel accepted the ceasefire. Hamas took only 15 minutes to break it. What's next?

That is not correct: Hamas already said that they would accept the ceasefire if the aggression is completely stopped.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:11 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:06 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 5:51 pm
There are two options here: (1) Continuing the war and (2) agreeing to peace.

Hamas refuses number (2). So what do you suggest next?

Hamas offered a ceasefire based on terms and conditions. Israel won't accept it for whatever reason.

Israel accepted the ceasefire. Hamas took only 15 minutes to break it. What's next?

That is not correct: Hamas already said that they would accept the ceasefire if the aggression is completely stopped.

That's what they said the last time. What do you do when the other side will not honour their word?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:13 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:11 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:06 pm
Hamas refuses number (2). So what do you suggest next?


Israel accepted the ceasefire. Hamas took only 15 minutes to break it. What's next?

That is not correct: Hamas already said that they would accept the ceasefire if the aggression is completely stopped.

That's what they said the last time. What do you do when the other side will not honour their word?

I call it unethical to respond to their request with the mass murder the civilians. What Israelis lose if they accept the ceasefire for the second time?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:06 pm What's next?

The possibilities are endless! Feel free to mix'n'match 'em!

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:25 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:06 pm What's next?

The possibilities are endless! Feel free to mix'n'match 'em!

What do these paintings refer to?

The Final Revelation & Apocalypse.

It might be irresponsible but I am playing within the Christian Zionist phantasy (or?) that these events in Israel portend great metaphysical events of terrifying destruction.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:38 pm The Final Revelation & Apocalypse.

It might be irresponsible but I am playing within the Christian Zionist phantasy (or?) that these events in Israel portend great metaphysical events of terrifying destruction.

OK, thanks.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:17 pm What Israelis lose if they accept the ceasefire for the second time?

Their lives.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/k_0L_nhEwtg

So if you love peace, then don't just nag...make it possible for them to say "yes." If you don't, then you are just perpetuating genocide.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 9:25 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:17 pm What Israelis lose if they accept the ceasefire for the second time?

Their lives.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/k_0L_nhEwtg

So if you love peace, then don't just nag...make it possible for them to say "yes." If you don't, then you are just perpetuating genocide.

But how do they know that accepting a ceasefire leads to losing their lives? As I said many times in this thread, violence just brings violence. There would be more people who hate Jews, there would be more terrorists then ... unless Israel kills all Jew haters that is not possible. Israel's government just is not wise enough.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 9:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 9:25 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:17 pm What Israelis lose if they accept the ceasefire for the second time?

Their lives.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/k_0L_nhEwtg

So if you love peace, then don't just nag...make it possible for them to say "yes." If you don't, then you are just perpetuating genocide.

But how do they know that accepting a ceasefire leads to losing their lives? As I said many times in this thread, violence just brings violence. There would be more people who hate Jews, there would be more terrorists then ... unless Israel kills all Jew haters that is not possible. Israel's government just is not wise enough.

The Israelis and their supporters need that narrative ... that all Jews will be killed in a genocide if they don't continue the attack.

With that narrative, they are fighting for their survival. Without that narrative, their actions are unconscionable.