The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Wizard22 wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 8:52 am To me, it's proved that they cannot be trusted, because they have no real moral values underneath them at all...hence why the NPC meme hurts them even worse than 'red-pilling' now.
That's not entirely the case, I think. They have a paradoxical situation: their post-Protestant, post-Humanist sense of moralizing is certainly intact, in that they feel guilty about things like "injustice," or "racism," or "non-inclusivity" when they see them. That is a warped sort of moralizing, and one quite detached from any sort of objective moral grounds; but they certainly have a vestige of moral earnestness, a sharp sense of guilt, and a need to expiate it by way of cruelty to all those they see as "regressive" or "oppressive" in any way.

They've stopped being Protestants, and they've stopped being Humanists, but they've been unable to shake the afflictions of the moral feelings obtained from both. They feel the residual sting of conventional morality; but in their reasoning, they do not think that way. And you can see it in their reactions to moral indictment -- hostility, bitterness, anger, and even viciousness, unchecked by conventional moral duties, but motivated in a visceral way from the residue of the past they are so keen to shake.

It really is, admittedly, a very superficial and confused kind of moralizing they do...which is why I have to term it "moralizing" rather than "morality." It's ungrounded, inconsistent, volatile and visceral, but not informed, rational, calm and genuinely just. They're doing the sorts of actions that suggest moral earnestness, but they have no deep root of any sort of moral reasoning under it. It's from the gut, and driven by some rather questionable motivators, such as guilt, hypocrisy, envy and covetousness...of which they have plenty. (They're all about the envy, for sure.)

But the reason underlying it goes back to people like Foucault, who was really an applier of the Nietzschean postulate, that all moralizing simply is a sham cover for the "will to power." That is, the only actual meaning of moral language is as a strategy for seizing power for one agenda or another. Underneath all the apparent moral earnestness, they have been taught, people are really just selfish and using moral words to advance their own particular purposes of oppressing others. The world is, in truth, a plain upon which "ignorant armies clash by night," to parrot Arnold; and so all one can do is employ one's own moral language as a kind of scourge to drive out the opposition, and to win space for one's own agenda...which, fortunately for them, Marxism instructs them is bound to be a utopia and "on the right side of history."

So for them, moral language gets heard differently. When you say, "X is wrong," what they hear is, "X is against my agenda." And they reply with, "Well X is absolutely right," which they understand to mean, "X happens to fit with my own agenda." It's projection: you're being sneaky, they believe, and so they feel they have a right to be sneaky. You use moral language as a ruse, and so they feel they ought to: after all, as Nietzsche taught us, that's all that's going on anyway, when we strip away the veneer of moralizing. Under everything is a bitter power struggle between competing agendas -- theirs being better, and yours being worse. You hit them with the moral flagellum, and they'll hit you with the moral flagellum. That's how it works, they think.

But nothing they do in service of this worldview makes them feel better. So they viscerally resort to ever more extravagant demonstrations of violence and rebellion, in an effort to quell the fires in their belly of leftover guilt and moral confusion.

Make no mistake: the Left is very involved with morality, and very interested in using moral language...but it's a totally different way of thinking about what we're all doing. Their world is a landscape of dissembling, guilt, hostility, oppression, victimization and competing agendas, in which moral language sits very lightly on the surface...even though a sense of moral guilt burns very deep in their consciences.

This is yet another reason why, for them, oppression and racism and whatnot have to be called "systemic." It means that even when they can't identify any real oppression, they still feel it in their guts. So they explain it away as nebulous "systemic oppression," which can never be located, explained, and especially, remedied. Personal racism can be addressed; "systemic" racism floats away from us and surrounds us like oxygen, and for them, explains why no matter how extreme their gestures of moral earnestness get, their feelings of guilt never seem to go away.
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Sculptor
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

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commonsense wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 2:11 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 1:50 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 1:02 pm When are you going to recognize that nothing you say will convince your opposition of anything? Time to move on.

Evidence is all you can offer to convince.
Trump has none and never did have.
All he has is empty words.
The words of a legandary liar.
Right, of course, but all of the evidence against Trump, or lack of it for Trump, has no effect on zealous Trumpers. I don’t know why this is, but it seems to be a rock solid fact.

And in fairness, whatever a Trumper puts forward has no effect in convincing non-Trumpers of anything either.
It is my view that people on the right tend to be more inclinded to the religious point of view. Religion focuses on belief and faith rather than evidence. They also are more inclined to follow the leader.

It thrives on the idea that you can beleive what you like, and are entitled to your belief. Faith, epecially that devoid of reason and support of evidence is even see as more valid because it leads to belief regardless of evidence.

So when Trump says he was riobbed it is not a matter of what is factually true; its all about following the leader; expressing faith in the leader; and showing that they belong by accepting what the leader says.
This is how Hitler thrived and this could be rpeating itself in the USA.
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

Post by commonsense »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:52 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 2:11 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 1:50 pm


Evidence is all you can offer to convince.
Trump has none and never did have.
All he has is empty words.
The words of a legandary liar.
Right, of course, but all of the evidence against Trump, or lack of it for Trump, has no effect on zealous Trumpers. I don’t know why this is, but it seems to be a rock solid fact.

And in fairness, whatever a Trumper puts forward has no effect in convincing non-Trumpers of anything either.
It is my view that people on the right tend to be more inclinded to the religious point of view. Religion focuses on belief and faith rather than evidence. They also are more inclined to follow the leader.

It thrives on the idea that you can beleive what you like, and are entitled to your belief. Faith, epecially that devoid of reason and support of evidence is even see as more valid because it leads to belief regardless of evidence.

So when Trump says he was riobbed it is not a matter of what is factually true; its all about following the leader; expressing faith in the leader; and showing that they belong by accepting what the leader says.
This is how Hitler thrived and this could be rpeating itself in the USA.
Well put.
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

Post by Sculptor »

commonsense wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:58 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:52 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 2:11 pm

Right, of course, but all of the evidence against Trump, or lack of it for Trump, has no effect on zealous Trumpers. I don’t know why this is, but it seems to be a rock solid fact.

And in fairness, whatever a Trumper puts forward has no effect in convincing non-Trumpers of anything either.
It is my view that people on the right tend to be more inclinded to the religious point of view. Religion focuses on belief and faith rather than evidence. They also are more inclined to follow the leader.

It thrives on the idea that you can beleive what you like, and are entitled to your belief. Faith, epecially that devoid of reason and support of evidence is even see as more valid because it leads to belief regardless of evidence.

So when Trump says he was riobbed it is not a matter of what is factually true; its all about following the leader; expressing faith in the leader; and showing that they belong by accepting what the leader says.
This is how Hitler thrived and this could be rpeating itself in the USA.
Well put.
Thanks.
It looks like Fani Willis is doing a great job, so let's hope reaosn prevails.
However the Florida case may well go pants up since the judge has been replaced by a Trump insider.
Not sure how judges are selected in Florida, but looks like Trump has some friends, who don't care about justice

I think there is some real courage out there. If Trump should ever get power, all these people who are fighting for justice are going to be in real trouble.
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

Post by Sculptor »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:27 pm
Wizard22 wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 8:52 am To me, it's proved that they cannot be trusted, because they have no real moral values underneath them at all...hence why the NPC meme hurts them even worse than 'red-pilling' now.
That's not entirely the case, I think.
THis is you

It is my view that people on the right tend to be more inclinded to the religious point of view. Religion focuses on belief and faith rather than evidence. They also are more inclined to follow the leader.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:14 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:27 pm
Wizard22 wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 8:52 am To me, it's proved that they cannot be trusted, because they have no real moral values underneath them at all...hence why the NPC meme hurts them even worse than 'red-pilling' now.
That's not entirely the case, I think.
THis is you
It can't be. According to Atheism, there are no "real" moral values. They're not objective, but merely subjective and illusory. So all you can possibly mean is, "Sculpy no like IC."

And believe me, that troubles me very little. 8)
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Lacewing
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

Post by Lacewing »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:52 pm It is my view that people on the right tend to be more inclinded to the religious point of view. Religion focuses on belief and faith rather than evidence. They also are more inclined to follow the leader.

It thrives on the idea that you can beleive what you like, and are entitled to your belief. Faith, epecially that devoid of reason and support of evidence is even see as more valid because it leads to belief regardless of evidence.

So when Trump says he was riobbed it is not a matter of what is factually true; its all about following the leader; expressing faith in the leader; and showing that they belong by accepting what the leader says.
This is how Hitler thrived and this could be rpeating itself in the USA.
Good points!

And the more supposed 'persecution' they face for their beliefs, the GREATER they become (in their own minds) for not wavering. They will NOT be deterred... not even by truth! They are STRONG in their delusional resolve! They are INVINCIBLE in the face of all who would seek to 'destroy' them! Maybe it's their imaginary IDENTITY of greatness that they're unable to achieve in a more truthful reality, and the level of absurdity they go to reflects the extent of their neediness.
Last edited by Lacewing on Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

Post by Sculptor »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:23 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:14 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:27 pm
That's not entirely the case, I think.
THis is you
It can't be. According to Atheism, there are no "real" moral values. They're not objective, but merely subjective and illusory. So all you can possibly mean is, "Sculpy no like IC."

And believe me, that troubles me very little. 8)
This issue here is not one of morality.

The issue is about facts. Facts as presented to the Grand Jury, and that are contained in the numerous indictments against Trump, which you are your little wizzy sock puppet refuse to accept, because you "believe" otherwise.

I realise that "killing is wrong" is not a fact, but an opinion.

Whereas the fact or falsity of whether or not the Trump/Guiliani crime group did in fact falsify Elector forms; threaten election workers; instigate a riot in the Capitol. are things that either did or did not happen

What you believe relates to the matter of "killing is wrong". But what you might believe about Trump being president is of no consequence.
Last edited by Sculptor on Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

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Lacewing wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:34 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:52 pm It is my view that people on the right tend to be more inclinded to the religious point of view. Religion focuses on belief and faith rather than evidence. They also are more inclined to follow the leader.

It thrives on the idea that you can beleive what you like, and are entitled to your belief. Faith, epecially that devoid of reason and support of evidence is even see as more valid because it leads to belief regardless of evidence.

So when Trump says he was riobbed it is not a matter of what is factually true; its all about following the leader; expressing faith in the leader; and showing that they belong by accepting what the leader says.
This is how Hitler thrived and this could be rpeating itself in the USA.
Good points!

And the more supposed 'persecution' they face for their beliefs, the GREATER they become (in their own minds) for not wavering. They will NOT be deterred... not even by truth! They are STRONG in their delusional resolve! They are INVINCIBLE in the face of all who would seek to 'destroy' them! Maybe it's their imaginary IDENTITY of greatness that they're unable to achieve in reality, and the level of absurdity they go to reflects the extent of their neediness.
There are two dangers for the future here I think.

The likely presence of MAGAs in the juries might completely scupper the decision, leaving a hung jury and retrials into perpetuity.
And the other danger is whether or not the rump of MAGAs, (around 30% of the population), are strong and stupid enough to continue with more violence.
Fani Willis has already had several death threats. I understand the a Texan MAGA was dumb enough to leave her a voice message and is now in gaol. More to follow no doubt.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:34 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:23 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:14 pm THis is you
It can't be. According to Atheism, there are no "real" moral values. They're not objective, but merely subjective and illusory. So all you can possibly mean is, "Sculpy no like IC."

And believe me, that troubles me very little. 8)
Trump...
:lol: :lol: :lol: You Lefties are SO predictable. "Look over there...Donald Trump..." right after, "You're a bad person..." Nothing to the point, nothing on topic. Just deflections.

But you can't go "looking for a ruby in a mountain of rocks," as the fat man so famously sang. I haven't heard anything relevant on the point, and I really don't expect to.
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

Post by Sculptor »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:43 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:34 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:23 pm
It can't be. According to Atheism, there are no "real" moral values. They're not objective, but merely subjective and illusory. So all you can possibly mean is, "Sculpy no like IC."

And believe me, that troubles me very little. 8)
Trump...
:lol: :lol: :lol: You Lefties are SO predictable.
This whole thread is about Trump and his crime organisation
Are you so stupid?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:51 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:43 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:34 pm
Trump...
:lol: :lol: :lol: You Lefties are SO predictable.
This whole thread is about Trump and his crime organisation
Are you so stupid?
"You..." again. And "Trump." Utterly predictable.

But no, son...Trump is not "the American Republic." And if the American political project has functionally ended, it's the fault of the Dems and their Leftist wing. But we were talking about the Leftist's "moral" appeals, from a "morality" they don't objectively believe in...which is one of their chief methods against the American people. So you can sit on the sidelines if you want, but the big boys want to play the important game.

Enjoy the Gatorade. It's free. :lol:

P.S. -- This is absolutely about you...and if you listen to it, will do you a world of good...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcP2GwHurNo But I won't be surprised if you do not. And precisely because it really DOES describe you, perfectly.
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 5:05 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:51 pm This whole thread is about Trump and his crime organisation
Are you so stupid?
"You..." again. And "Trump." Utterly predictable.

The Dems... the Leftist's... This is absolutely about you...
... you... you ... you... you
:lol:
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

Post by Lacewing »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:39 pm There are two dangers for the future here I think.

The likely presence of MAGAs in the juries might completely scupper the decision, leaving a hung jury and retrials into perpetuity.
And the other danger is whether or not the rump of MAGAs, (around 30% of the population), are strong and stupid enough to continue with more violence.
Yes, it's a fucking mess. But even if it lingers on like a chronic disease for awhile, I don't think it has enough resilience to ever 'win'. Some people just don't 'let go' peacefully when they should, and it drags down everyone around them. Not much we can do but watch the death throes and keep directing our forward-momentum towards life.
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

Post by commonsense »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 6:47 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:39 pm There are two dangers for the future here I think.

The likely presence of MAGAs in the juries might completely scupper the decision, leaving a hung jury and retrials into perpetuity.
And the other danger is whether or not the rump of MAGAs, (around 30% of the population), are strong and stupid enough to continue with more violence.
Yes, it's a fucking mess. But even if it lingers on like a chronic disease for awhile, I don't think it has enough resilience to ever 'win'. Some people just don't 'let go' peacefully when they should, and it drags down everyone around them. Not much we can do but watch the death throes and keep directing our forward-momentum towards life.
Good will triumph over evil, most of us hope, but evil is more aggressive in accomplishing its goals than good is. So, regrettably, I am a pessimist.

Trump will never be convicted of anything. He could stand on 5th Avenue and shoot someone, and he will never be convicted.

That is because in any jury he faces, there will always be at least one MAGA. Every trial will end with a hung jury, no matter what the jurisdiction is.

And Trump will not be prohibited from appearing on the ballot in Colorado or anywhere else, because his SCOTUS will interpret the US Constitution narrowly to rule there can be no involvement in insurrection without a conviction of the same. And he will never be convicted of anything.

Trump will win the Republican nomination and the presidency, too, in a close race, because of the prevalence of gerrymandering around the nation.

Leftist wokies will be reviled and their opinions suppressed. The Constitution will not change, but at every instance it is to be interpreted, Trumpers, not conservatives, will be victorious.

People of color, LGBTQs, women, children and progressives in general will suffer both subtle and blatant injuries.

The world stage will be controlled by Russia in the style of the USSR and only China will stand in its way toward complete domination of the world.

The West will be eating Commie Corn Flakes for breakfast.

We all might as well get used to seeing things through whiz’s eyes.
Last edited by commonsense on Fri Sep 08, 2023 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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