Philosophy Now Forum

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:43 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:33 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:23 pm

Do I get to write my own gospel?

✍ The Pen is mighty, oh yes, yes, yes please use it.

I know how to gossip. Does that count too?

Yes, reporting counts too, and believing what you are reporting helps make the gossip personally more credible, according to the author.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:51 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:23 pm Do I get to write my own gospel?

The 'Gospel of Harbal' -- one of the lost books from the Sacred Book of Realities

I like the sound of that.

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 1:37 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:51 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:23 pm Do I get to write my own gospel?

The 'Gospel of Harbal' -- one of the lost books from the Sacred Book of Realities

I like the sound of that.

What about mine? About the Pen is mighty…did you like the sound of that?

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:41 pm Do we teach them to confront tragic existence boldly and realistically?

Well, if life is just "tragic," as you suppose, then there's actually no use in teaching them anything at all. Human life has no nobility, and death ends all: who's to care what they believed between the womb and the tomb? In that worldview, there's no rewards for harsh "realism" of that type. One may as well embrace any consolation one can grab...true or not.

But I don't suppose that. And I'd rather teach them not just realism and boldness, but also hope.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:47 pm How can infants be saved by Christ if they never even hear about him?

Well, to my knowledge, the Bible doesn't explicitly tell us what the disposition of babies is. There are various speculations, but I know of no slam-dunk exegesis that would give us a definite answer. There may be an answer in God's middle knowledge. https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writing ... -knowledge. Or maybe it's not something we particularly need to know, since we have ourselves to look to.

I don't imagine the secular world, which aborts babies at a rate of millions per year, can much concern themselves with the welfare of babies, though. By contrast, I know that God is very fair: and no doubt, whatever His plan for them is, and whatever their ensuing state, it's appropriate and fair.

More than that, I can't tell you. Some things, we just have to wait to discover.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:47 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:33 pm Children don't have many choices.

And I guess the Bible indicates that God will judge them as sinners anyway.

We cannot simply assume that children are “innocent” and are therefore exempt from the penalties of sin. The Bible teaches clearly that infants are in a state of sin and need to be regenerated. They, like all humanity, can be saved only through Christ.

After his crucifixion in order to view the life of Jesus as ecumenically meaningful and not just locally based, an overt purpose had to be constructed as the reason for his execution. The easiest way to give it the credentials of a timeless ecumenical event and not merely another victim of Roman justice was to make everyone a sinner and sinful from birth. As subsequently endorsed, it required the full impact of divinity to annul the irrevocable consequences of our innate sinfulness which is what the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was meant to accomplish. Without our sinfulness as pretext, there would only have been a crucifixion without any need for salvation and Jesus just another daily event among the many thousands executed by the Romans.

In effect, without sin being the core reason, Christ's death would have been completely without the justification subsequently ascribed to it but clearly not against what the Romans considered just.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:47 pm And I guess the Bible indicates that God will judge them as sinners anyway.

We cannot simply assume that children are “innocent” and are therefore exempt from the penalties of sin. The Bible teaches clearly that infants are in a state of sin and need to be regenerated. They, like all humanity, can be saved only through Christ.

Nowhere in the Bible does it clearly state that infants are sinners, it's inferred from King David (who must have known he was a sinner in a previous life..lol) and from Paul in Romans who says all have sinned which also is ridiculous to accept he is including children, unless everyone that has been born are from a reincarnate previously sinful life AND Paul was aware of that

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 2:00 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 1:37 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:51 pm
The 'Gospel of Harbal' -- one of the lost books from the Sacred Book of Realities

I like the sound of that.

What about mine? About the Pen is mighty…did you like the sound of that?

Yes, thank you, I found it vey inspirational.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 7:09 am
Nowhere in the Bible does it clearly state that infants are sinners,

Then whoever wrote it obviously didn't have kids.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 7:09 am Nowhere in the Bible does it clearly state that infants are sinners, it's inferred from King David (who must have known he was a sinner in a previous life..lol) and from Paul in Romans who says all have sinned which also is ridiculous to accept he is including children, unless everyone that has been born are from a reincarnate previously sinful life AND Paul was aware of that

So, at what age does one become capable of being judged a sinner.
And perhaps parents should be slow to make children conscious of sin. Because at that point, when they get the idea of sin and how it is 'against God' they are often judged accountable. Get hit by a bus the next day and you're going down. But if you can postpone that teaching until they are really good at avoiding busses, you might reduce their chances of eternal damnation. Which seems like something a parent would like to prevent their child from experiencing. In fact, it's almost enough to get one's tubes tied, either set of tubes, in advance.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 11:38 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 7:09 am Nowhere in the Bible does it clearly state that infants are sinners, it's inferred from King David (who must have known he was a sinner in a previous life..lol) and from Paul in Romans who says all have sinned which also is ridiculous to accept he is including children, unless everyone that has been born are from a reincarnate previously sinful life AND Paul was aware of that

So, at what age does one become capable of being judged a sinner.
And perhaps parents should be slow to make children conscious of sin. Because at that point, when they get the idea of sin and how it is 'against God' they are often judged accountable. Get hit by a bus the next day and you're going down. But if you can postpone that teaching until they are really good at avoiding busses, you might reduce their chances of eternal damnation. Which seems like something a parent would like to prevent their child from experiencing. In fact, it's almost enough to get one's tubes tied, either set of tubes, in advance.

I don't recall ever being taught about what sin is (and to be honest I am still not certain). I was taught the 10 commandments (in RC primary school) around about the age of 11-12 because I remember the teacher and class I was in. I think I assumed, and probably still do, that not adhering to the 10Cs were sin, and the other 'sins' are what we comprehend as morally reprehensible, such as rape. (Maybe Moses ran out of room on his tablet for that one, or God decided 'it goes without saying'!)

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 5:47 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:47 pm How can infants be saved by Christ if they never even hear about him?

... maybe it's not something we particularly need to know, since we have ourselves to look to.

What do you mean by 'we have ourselves to look to'?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 5:47 am I don't imagine the secular world, which aborts babies at a rate of millions per year, can much concern themselves with the welfare of babies, though.

You think that secularists don't care about the welfare of babies?

Do you think Christians don't have abortions?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 11:49 am I don't recall ever being taught about what sin is (and to be honest I am still not certain). I was taught the 10 commandments (in RC primary school) around about the age of 11-12 because I remember the teacher and class I was in. I think I assumed, and probably still do, that not adhering to the 10Cs were sin, and the other 'sins' are what we comprehend as morally reprehensible, such as rape. (Maybe Moses ran out of room on his tablet for that one, or God decided 'it goes without saying'!)

]Sounds like a rather gentle version.
But Jesus pretty much broadens the 10 Cs to including thinking about them. Sinful thoughts. Of course kids are not generally thinking about adultery, but the idea is present in J's interpretation of the 10 c's that one need not act to have sinned.
But that's great if you weren't burdened by this kind of thing. I believe a lot of Christians are. And I certainly was a child for a couple of years in a religious school. Sinning was regularly occurring, even merely attitudinally.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:15 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 5:47 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:47 pm How can infants be saved by Christ if they never even hear about him?

... maybe it's not something we particularly need to know, since we have ourselves to look to.

What do you mean by 'we have ourselves to look to'?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 5:47 am I don't imagine the secular world, which aborts babies at a rate of millions per year, can much concern themselves with the welfare of babies, though.

You think that secularists don't care about the welfare of babies?

Do you think Christians don't have abortions?

Or kill babies, that is those born. Christian wars have always killed babies and pregnant mothers along with enemy men.
Or when, say, the Christians hit the Americas.