Philosophy Now Forum

“A woman who survived the Nova music festival witnessed a young woman encircled by Hamas, stripped naked, violated, and manhandled by multiple Hamas terrorists as they gang raped her.

One terrorist pulled the woman's long hair, forcibly arching her neck backwards, fully exposing her naked torso, only to sever both her breasts from her chest with his commando knife. Her entire torso fell backwards, slackened in agony. She may have fainted, though she lived through the mutilation. The disembodied breasts fell to the ground, where terrorists casually played with them”

- reported in NewsWeek by Qanta Ahmed (a Muslim physician & Senior Fellow at the Independent Women's Forum)

Hamas’ actions are unforgivable, and the evidence is overwhelming - hundreds of hours of footage, thousands of photos, eye witness testimonies, and detailed forensics. I have seen it myself - you can too, it’s easy to find online.

But our institutions (the
@UN
,
@UN_Women
,
@amnesty
etc.) have very little or nothing to say on the matter.
And many on ‘the left’ continue to downplay or even deny that these attacks happened at all (don’t believe me? Just check the replies to this post).

So it’s on us. We must continue calling attention to these atrocities and condemning Hamas in absolutely unambiguous terms.
Please continue speaking out - for those who no longer have a voice.''

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:46 am Hamas’ actions are unforgivable, and the evidence is overwhelming - hundreds of hours of footage, thousands of photos, eye witness testimonies, and detailed forensics. I have seen it myself - you can too, it’s easy to find online.

Very helpful if you’d post links to sites where these videos and photographs can be seen.

I don’t need a hundred hours. Just a few minutes.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 5:07 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:46 am Hamas’ actions are unforgivable, and the evidence is overwhelming - hundreds of hours of footage, thousands of photos, eye witness testimonies, and detailed forensics. I have seen it myself - you can too, it’s easy to find online.

Very helpful if you’d post links to sites where these videos and photographs can be seen.

I don’t need a hundred hours. Just a few minutes.

'Helpful' how?

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 11:08 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 11:05 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 10:14 pm Hamas already said that they would accept a ceasefire if Israel stops the aggression.

Israel accepted. Israel stopped. Hamas waited only 15 minutes, then began firing rockets again.

What's your next idea?

Then try again and again until there is peace.

So...keep trusting the homicidal maniacs, because one day, they're going to be miraculously ready to negotiate?

You'll have to explain to me why that's a sound strategy. You'll also certainly have to explain it to the families of the victims, both in southern Israel and in Gaza.

phyllo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 11:16 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 11:07 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 11:00 pm I feel that I care more than you or IC.

Really?

Do you care about Russians? Or just Ukrainians? And do you care about Israelis? Or just Hamas?

Did I say somewhere that I didn't care about those people?

Let's find out if you do.

What do you propose...both in Ukraine and in Gaza?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:47 am

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 11:08 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 11:05 pm
Israel accepted. Israel stopped. Hamas waited only 15 minutes, then began firing rockets again.

What's your next idea?

Then try again and again until there is peace.

So...keep trusting the homicidal maniacs, because one day, they're going to be miraculously ready to negotiate?

Or keep killing civilians? Now the number of killed civilians in Gaza is more than 21,000. That is the duty of a civil country to prefer negotiation over mass murder.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:47 am You'll have to explain to me why that's a sound strategy. You'll also certainly have to explain it to the families of the victims, both in southern Israel and in Gaza.

As I said what other option do we have? You either keep fighting which means more kills and more suffering among civilians or you keep your mind open to negotiation whenever possible.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:48 amWhat do you propose...both in Ukraine and in Gaza?

The question is a good one. I will only make comments in regard to Gaza.

There are situations in life and in politics that we might label *ethical train wrecks*. The nation of Israel, and what it did in order to create and secure the nation, can be looked at as such. If things had been handled differently, many years back, it is possible that things would not have developed to this point. So then, the first thing is to recognize that it is now a train wreck. That means a situation so complex, so twisted, involving so many errors and injustices, that now it is possible that there is no way out of the situation.

For example, and taking into consideration the reports I read and watch, Israel is not *winning* and some say it cannot win. It does not have the power to wipe Hamas out. The region is now unsettled. If there was a possibility of some general accord with Israel, now it seems that the nations in the region cannot make any such deal. Israel has no option except to push forward, but pushing forward will only mire it more. It is stuck. And this is a tactic of guerrilla warfare: mire your far superior enemy.

The Houthis, in support of Gazans and opposing Israel and its supporters, can shut down sea traffic in the region and there is nothing anyone can do about it. One mistake and suddenly oil production and distribution is affected. The US is in a real bind. They have vast military power and have been reduced to impotency. This is a result of about 30 years of bad policy in the region. And it looks as if *support of Israel* has been at the center of it. Now people are saying far more out loud than ever before that *Israel has far too much power over the US government*. There is all that talk about excessive *Jewish influence*. My own investigations confirms this without doubt. How has this come about? What does it mean? What should one think about it? All of these things are on-going so it is very hard to say now what it means.

The resolve of Hamas, and other radicals, will only be strengthened. Now it also happens that Jews in Europe and N. America who have been supportive of Israel, and whose identity is bound up with the Israeli idea and its reality, are looked upon with suspicion. None of this bodes well for Jewry generally speaking.

Israel has been a curse in the region. Or perhaps someone will correct me on this and show me that, no, in reality it has been a blessing? From all I see it looks like a bad choice. In the end -- I suspect -- it is not going to turn out well for Jewry. Not for Israel certainly. The enemies of Israel (and they have solid justifications) are gaining power. It is not the same world as it was 30-40 years back. Israel is far less strong than it had presented itself. And the danger mounts.

So then, if Israel continues to harden its position by continuing giving support to governments like that of Netanyahu -- who hold to a a sort of absolutists stance about Jewish sovereignty and that ultra hard-headed Israeli tendency to pay no attention to world attitude -- they will continue getting themselves into the mire. What will unfold as a result of what has happened (I surmise) will not get better all of a sudden. A wound has been opened. It will take a decade (again I surmise) to settle down.

The situation in Israel is just another blow out among many. Social unrest, frustration, a lack of clarity about what *narrative* to believe. But also very different stances and interpretations about what is right. Indeed we do not all look out upon the same world. The world we see reflects inner, subjective landscapes.

Let me say this: Just a short while back Netanyahu made a swaggering presentation for his *grand plan* in the region using a map of Israel that did not acknowledge the occupied areas nor Gaza. Astonishing Israeli arrogance in my view.

Safe to say that all the best laid plans of mice and men et cetera et cetera et cetera. . .

From The Guardian: Israel is engaged in a “multi-front war”, its defence minister Yoav Gallant, has said, hinting at military operations across the Middle East as the war in Gaza showed new signs of a dangerous regional escalation. Speaking in parliament on Tuesday, Gallant said Israel was “coming under attack from seven theatres: Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Judea and Samaria [an Israeli term for the West Bank], Iraq, Yemen and Iran”.

These are conflicts largely initiated by Israel and the US over the last 30 years -- unless of course I am interpreting things incorrectly. "The chickens have come home to roost".

you're doing great, AJ. that post only contained 747 words (4,094 characters) not counting the quote, and a single link. makin good progress.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 5:07 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:46 am Hamas’ actions are unforgivable, and the evidence is overwhelming - hundreds of hours of footage, thousands of photos, eye witness testimonies, and detailed forensics. I have seen it myself - you can too, it’s easy to find online.

Very helpful if you’d post links to sites where these videos and photographs can be seen.

I don’t need a hundred hours. Just a few minutes.

Neither do you don't need to see necrophelia, torture, mutilation and execution.

Imagine the worst. It happened.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:13 pm you're doing great, AJ. that post only contained 747 words (4,094 characters) not counting the quote, and a single link. makin good progress.

You are just rubbing it in that I am going downhill. I appreciate your concern. I will do better.

(continued)

And in the age of dubious evidence, you don't need to see pictures, videos, or the corpses left behind.

Duplicate

Walker wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:51 pm Neither do you don't need to see necrophelia, torture, mutilation and execution.

Imagine the worst. It happened.

Then the real question or the real issue is even more complex and requires careful thought. In war -- in all wars -- there are always retalitory crimes. For example the Soviets against the Germans. The Americans against the Germans. Or the Americans against the Iraqis. Certainly the Americans against the Vietnamese. Violence, torture, sexual violence including rape and mutilation -- these are common occurrences in war. And in all wars. Since the very beginning of recorded history.

What you and I think Veggie seem to be saying is that because some Hamas fighters committed these atrocities that therefore Israel has a right to annihilate Gaza. This annihilation involves extreme acts of violent retribution that are different than an individual act of torture, mutilation or sexual violence, that is true, but it is no less cynical and cruel. It is done at a certain remove however.

If you want my opinion about such violence -- any of the acts of retributive violence that we can name -- is that it is always an act of revenge for hurt suffered.

That's your opinion, but it doesn't mesh with reality. The reality is, Israel is fighting for future survival, not past wrongs done against them. The past wrongs of October 7 are evidence of that, along with the promises of the terrorists to wipe out Israel, and their refusal of a two-state solution. What's the slogan? From the river to the sea ... no Israel.

You can't have one-party make an agreement to a two-state solution, when the other party has vowed genocide.

All Hamas has to do is leave to stop the war. Then Israel can hunt them down like dogs elsewhere, away from their human shields, for what they did, and for survival against future terrorist acts, with prevention from Hamas fulfilling its mission.

(continued)

If I had the say of the way of things, for Israel, I would say don't trust the Obama/Biden administration as far as I can spit. However, Israel already knows that.