Philosophy Now Forum

Incidentally, for all you socialists, it's Caesar Chavez Day. He created a working version of socialism In Spite of major interference, that all the capitalists try to ignore in favor of the mess that occurred after he left the stage. He proved that both socialism and benevolent dictatorships ate viable options.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:23 pm

tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:12 pmDictators demand absolute loyalty and unquestioning belief. Why is God different?

Very easy. He doesn't "demand unquestioning belief."

Can someone who doesn't have absolute loyalty to Jesus Christ get into Heaven?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:23 pmYou'll understand the necessity of the compulsion, and even of the re-education camps and gulags, when you see the result, they say.

That's not what God does.

Purgatory used to fulfil the same function. Is that still an option or is judgement final?

tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:44 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:23 pm

tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:12 pmDictators demand absolute loyalty and unquestioning belief. Why is God different?

Very easy. He doesn't "demand unquestioning belief."

Can someone who doesn't have absolute loyalty to Jesus Christ get into Heaven?

What do you mean by "absolute loyalty"?

Do you know any human being who has that? Did Peter, when he denied Christ three times before the Roman authorities?

Purgatory used to fulfil the same function.

Purgatory is not in the Bible anywhere. It's an invention of ambitious and unscrupulous clerics, I'm afraid.

Purgatory is not in the Bible anywhere. *It's an invention of ambitious and unscrupulous clerics*, I'm afraid.

*just like every version of the bible*

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:48 pmWhat do you mean by "absolute loyalty"?

Do you know any human being who has that? Did Peter, when he denied Christ three times before the Roman authorities?

Someone who isn't convinced might reasonably ask, if a disciple of Jesus could deny Him, just how powerful were His claims of Divinity?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:48 pmPurgatory is not in the Bible anywhere. It's an invention of ambitious and unscrupulous clerics, I'm afraid.

So the bad news is that once condemned, there is no forgiveness and no mercy.

tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:05 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:48 pmWhat do you mean by "absolute loyalty"?

Do you know any human being who has that? Did Peter, when he denied Christ three times before the Roman authorities?

Someone who isn't convinced might reasonably ask, if a disciple of Jesus could deny Him, just how powerful were His claims of Divinity?

Was it his job to subvert Peter's free will, when Peter had decided to choose to do the wrong thing? Is it God's job to control you, and prevent you from doing anything that He doesn't like?

Is that what you see Him doing now?

So the bad news is that once condemned, there is no forgiveness and no mercy.

The opposite: once you realize where you actually stand, morally speaking, there's something to do. There is the recognition that forgiveness and mercy are exactly what you need, and of how futile human pride and self-admiration are in the face of the reality of what you are, and where you stand.

Had God only brought us to that point, He would be just and fair, but as you say, not merciful or forgiving. But now you know what the purpose of God's sacrifice of His Son is; that He might be, simultaneously, both righteous in Judgment and rich in mercy. And now you know why faith is required: because you must choose to accept that arrangement.

However, it's also an arrangement you can refuse. If you insist that God is not permitted to forgive you, or deny that He is just at all, then you can opt out. As C.S. Lewis so famously said,

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it."

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:30 pmWas it his job to subvert Peter's free will, when Peter had decided to choose to do the wrong thing?

You misunderstand the question. If being in the presence of Jesus Christ is not enough to command loyalty, what chance is there for people two thousand years removed?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:30 pmThere is the recognition that forgiveness and mercy are exactly what you need

For what?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:30 pmHowever, it's also an arrangement you can refuse. If you insist that God is not permitted to forgive you, or deny that He is just at all, then you can opt out. As C.S. Lewis so famously said,

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it."

I know many devoutly religious people who do everything you say God asks, except the one thing many people say is the only one that really matters. Few of the Jews or Christians I know are particularly devout, more so my Muslim and Hindu friends. None of them would choose hell. Is it your belief that they will nonetheless end up there?

tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:39 pm If being in the presence of Jesus Christ is not enough to command loyalty, what chance is there for people two thousand years removed?

There is no statute of limitations on salvation. That's one reason why faith is necessary; because the Object of faith is not in front of us at this very moment; if He were, we would not need any exercising of faith, would we?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:30 pmThere is the recognition that forgiveness and mercy are exactly what you need

For what?

You tell me. You know your own life.

I can tell you only this: "All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) I know it describes me. And it would surely describe you, too, if you are human.

But you will know. You know yourself. And God knows. So it's not necessary for me to have any details. I'm not the Judge.

I know many devoutly religious people who do everything you say God asks, except the one thing many people say is the only one that really matters. Few of the Jews or Christians I know are particularly devout, more so my Muslim and Hindu friends. None of them would choose hell. Is it your belief that they will nonetheless end up there?

Jesus said: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father, but by Me." (John 14:6)

You ask, "Is it my belief..." More importantly, is it Jesus' belief?

And is it yours? That's the real question.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:25 pmJesus said: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father, but by Me." (John 14:6)

You ask, "Is it my belief..." More importantly, is it Jesus' belief?

And is it yours? That's the real question.

For all the billions of people who have not had exposure to the New Testament, is it God's?

tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:16 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:25 pmJesus said: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father, but by Me." (John 14:6)

You ask, "Is it my belief..." More importantly, is it Jesus' belief?

And is it yours? That's the real question.

For all the billions of people who have not had exposure to the New Testament, is it God's?

Well, if you read Romans 1, you'll see that ALL men have knowledge of God. And if you read the OT, you'll realize that, just as people are nowadays saved by faith in looking back to Christ, many were saved by looking ahead in faith, too.

So as Romans says,

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible mankind, of birds, four-footed animals, and crawling creatures.

Therefore God gave them up to vile impurity in the lusts of their hearts, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for falsehood, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."

You may believe God's word, or not...but you now know what it says. All people know God exists. There are none with an excuse. And mankind is responsible for what it knows.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:33 pmWell, if you read Romans 1, you'll see that ALL men have knowledge of God. And if you read the OT, you'll realize that, just as people are nowadays saved by faith in looking back to Christ, many were saved by looking ahead in faith, too.

By reading Romans, one reads the words of a man. Why is what he said not important enough for Jesus to have said it?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:33 pmYou may believe God's word, or not...but you now know what it says. All people know God exists. There are none with an excuse. And mankind is responsible for what it knows.

Not all people know Jesus exists. Most of the world's population is not responsible for their ignorance of the Bible. If as Jesus said "no one comes to the Father but through Me", what does that tell you about God's love of mankind?
I note your concern for Skepdick:

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:36 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:35 pmI freely speak up when I say that your God is immoral.

Then you condemn yourself. And I am free of responsibility, since I have told you what you are doing to yourself.

I will speak to others. I will not speak to you again, lest I should make your situation worse for you.

Evidently you see it as your responsibility to engage others; but if in failing to persuade them you provoke anger, the greater punishment that results is nothing to do with you. Skepdick, in your view, is worse off than before he spoke to you. I imagine the same is true for me, because if God allows you to cause additional suffering, but absolves you of any responsibility, then I agree with Skepdick. How many of us have to suffer because of you?

Immanuel Can wrote:

Well, if you read Romans 1, you'll see that ALL men have knowledge of God. And if you read the OT, you'll realize that, just as people are nowadays saved by faith in looking back to Christ, many were saved by looking ahead in faith, too.

But people who are suffering from depression precisely cannot even think there might be something better than this world and its suffering and meaninglessness. So Paul was mistaken. On the other hand, practical religions such as Islam where not beliefs but rituals and politics are how God makes the psyche better have little need for Paul's advice.

tillingborn wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:30 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:33 pmWell, if you read Romans 1, you'll see that ALL men have knowledge of God. And if you read the OT, you'll realize that, just as people are nowadays saved by faith in looking back to Christ, many were saved by looking ahead in faith, too.

By reading Romans, one reads the words of a man. Why is what he said not important enough for Jesus to have said it?

He did. But Paul put it in an extended discourse that contains all kinds of other gems on human nature one might find useful here.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:33 pmYou may believe God's word, or not...but you now know what it says. All people know God exists. There are none with an excuse. And mankind is responsible for what it knows.

Not all people know Jesus exists. Most of the world's population is not responsible for their ignorance of the Bible. If as Jesus said "no one comes to the Father but through Me", what does that tell you about God's love of mankind? [/quote]
God is real. And if mankind has preferences, why would we be surprised if the Supreme Being had ways He chose, ways congenial to His nature and character, and ways that He knew were incompatible with the truth about who He is? Are only men allowed to have preferences?

But the offer of salvation is universal. As Jesus said, "God so loved the world that He gave his only Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16) That's an open offer. And before Jesus came, men like Abraham were saved by looking forward to it, even though they had never heard the specific name "Jesus Christ."

But to the present: their situation is not yours. And if you'll forgive me, I don't quite think that your concern is that not enough ancient Hittites or Fiji islanders have managed to make it to salvation. That's between them and God.

You have heard that name. So the question for you is only, "What will you do with what you know?"

Evidently you see it as your responsibility to engage others; but if in failing to persuade them you provoke anger, the greater punishment that results is nothing to do with you.

Actually the opposite is true. I HAVE To withdraw, because their greater punishment is of SERIOUS CONCERN to me.

Have you ever heard the phrase, "Suicide by cop?" It means when somebody decides they want to kill themselves, but wants the police to execute them. So maybe they go out in the street and wave a gun, provoking the police to shoot them. In such a case, the worst thing that can happen is that a uniformed cop shows up. The suicidal person will merely take the opportunity to force the policeman to shoot him. The smartest thing is for the police to withdraw until the self-destructive person comes to his senses, exhausts himself, or changes his mind. Civilians may approach the suicidal person, perhaps, or even plainclothes officers, so long as the suicidal person does not suspect they are policemen. But the situation of suicide by cop means that those who are manifestly policemen must stand back, lest the person harm himself.

In the same way, there is suicide by Christian. It's when a person is so agitated that he begins to blaspheme God and to increase his personal responsibility. The continued presence of an audience to which he can be further provoked to blaspheme and harm himself is then not in the "suicidal" person's interest. So the Christian withdraws with a warning, lest the agitated person should greatly increase his own condemnation. In fact, that's exactly how the apostle Paul responded (Acts 18:6). So that is the Biblical pattern.

I have no intention at all to see Skep or anyone else condemned. But some people will condemn themselves, whether I want them to or not. My role is to try to see that they know of salvation, but not to persist in provoking them to do it when that is the course upon which they are set. To do otherwise would be to provoke them to do themselves further injury and harden them against the truth.

But it is my hope that that is not the course you will choose for yourself, and that you are not so suicidal that you wish to cement yourself into condemnation. Should that happen, I have no other recourse but to desist from engaging you, in your own best interests, lest you should further harm yourself. But to my understanding, you're not at that point. And so long as you're not, I may hope better things for you, and may, in fact, hope to see good things come to you.

Those who speak against God call condemnation on themselves. This is what the Bible means when it says, "Every idle word that a man shall speak, he shall give account for in the Day of Judgment."

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:13 pm

tillingborn wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:30 amEvidently you see it as your responsibility to engage others; but if in failing to persuade them you provoke anger, the greater punishment that results is nothing to do with you.

Actually the opposite is true. I HAVE To withdraw, because their greater punishment is of SERIOUS CONCERN to me.

Then is it not irresponsible of you to risk it in the first place? Given that:

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:33 pm"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them."

What do you hope to achieve that God can't?

tillingborn wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:01 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:13 pm

tillingborn wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:30 amEvidently you see it as your responsibility to engage others; but if in failing to persuade them you provoke anger, the greater punishment that results is nothing to do with you.

Actually the opposite is true. I HAVE To withdraw, because their greater punishment is of SERIOUS CONCERN to me.

Then is it not irresponsible of you to risk it in the first place?

Au contraire. To know God is the greatest gift a person can have in his/her life. It's "irresponsible" to know that and say nothing. But it does not mean that the realization is without consequences, and that makes it very serious.

There is no such thing as knowing about salvation in an idle or dilatory way. There's only believing and rejecting. The consequences either way are huge.