Philosophy Now Forum

Truth is the criterion for evaluating a statement:
- The Earth is spherical - T
- The Earth is cylindrical - F
- I have 6 fingers - T or F ? <- Lack of binary logic

There is also trinary logic, with three states -1(F),0(I don't know, maybe),1(T) respectively.

Zarathustra wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:58 pm What if the empirical fact to test the proposition was an illusion?
Which is the priority, the fact, or proposition?

We can be wrong about what we state is true. Truth is independent of anything we might claim. Truth is simply what is the case which can be independent of our own thoughts and perceptions.

Now if we preceded every statement with, "I believe", then we would be talking about our beliefs and not what is the case independent of our thoughts and perceptions, and in that sense everything we claim would be true because we know what we believe. We just don't know if what we believe matches up with what is the case.

Isn't it true that humans believe things?

nemos wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:49 am Truth is the criterion for evaluating a statement:
- The Earth is spherical - T
- The Earth is cylindrical - F
- I have 6 fingers - T or F ? <- Lack of binary logic

There is also trinary logic, with three states -1(F),0(I don't know, maybe),1(T) respectively.

What makes the scribbles, "The Earth is spherical" true? What makes any string of scribbles true or false?

If we found an alien book written in an alien language, what would make the scribbles in the book true or false?

It is impossible to answer a question that has not been asked. Nor is it possible to speak the truth before a statement has been made. But I'm not going to prove it, so we can leave it at that, it won't change the world order.

The sphericity of the Earth is certainly debatable, I believe that from your point of view it could also look flat.

nemos wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 4:39 pm It is impossible to answer a question that has not been asked. Nor is it possible to speak the truth before a statement has been made. But I'm not going to prove it, so we can leave it at that, it won't change the world order.

In other words, you like to talk shit but won't back it up. Got it.

nemos wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 4:39 pm The sphericity of the Earth is certainly debatable, I believe that from your point of view it could also look flat.

So views, not just statements, can be true or false?

What is the purpose of making a statement at all?

Trajk Logik wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 2:40 pm ... you like to talk shit ...

But you seem to like talking about them.

nemos wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:29 am

Trajk Logik wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 2:40 pm ... you like to talk shit ...

But you seem to like talking about them.

I'm not interested in people who wish to proselytize to others and expect their statements to not be questioned or defended.

Truth is a biological experience, but it is not infallible. It is always true to the state of the biology that is having the experience. If biology is altered, its truth will be aligned with that alteration. To the group, the truth is agreement through the same processes that occur with the individual.

nemos wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:49 am Truth is the criterion for evaluating a statement:
- The Earth is spherical - T
- The Earth is cylindrical - F
- I have 6 fingers - T or F ? <- Lack of binary logic

There is also trinary logic, with three states -1(F),0(I don't know, maybe),1(T) respectively.

Unless you've lost any, then you certainly have.

Whatever humans prefer to believe and fight to the death anyone who says it ain't so!

Dubious wrote: ↑Thu Jul 17, 2025 6:37 pm Whatever humans prefer to believe and fight to the death anyone who says it ain't so!

There is no truth but experience, and like I said, it's not infallible. The reasonable, logical way for an individual to seek truth is to dialogue, knowing each of the others has been subjected to the same information and nothing else that the others have not been exposed to. Assuming all participants are healthy and mentally stable, you would still be faced with each individual's personal history, which would tend to fuck things up just a bit---lol! The closest thing to the truth is experience. If someone tells you to climb a high ladder that looks rotten, no matter how reassuring that person is, you are not going to trust that ladder. Even if a collective of individuals testifies to its strength, your truth will prevail. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 18, 2025 4:02 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Thu Jul 17, 2025 6:37 pm Whatever humans prefer to believe and fight to the death anyone who says it ain't so!

There is no truth but experience, and like I said, it's not infallible. The reasonable, logical way for an individual to seek truth is to dialogue, knowing each of the others has been subjected to the same information and nothing else that the others have not been exposed to. Assuming all participants are healthy and mentally stable, you would still be faced with each individual's personal history, which would tend to fuck things up just a bit---lol! The closest thing to the truth is experience. If someone tells you to climb a high ladder that looks rotten, no matter how reassuring that person is, you are not going to trust that ladder. Even if a collective of individuals testifies to its strength, your truth will prevail. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things.

As a summary, I can't disagree but I would add biology with all of its inherent limitations, of which there are many, often distorting the very concept of truth by which truth is separated from fact and made personal.

Dubious wrote: ↑Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:17 pm

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 18, 2025 4:02 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Thu Jul 17, 2025 6:37 pm Whatever humans prefer to believe and fight to the death anyone who says it ain't so!

There is no truth but experience, and like I said, it's not infallible. The reasonable, logical way for an individual to seek truth is to dialogue, knowing each of the others has been subjected to the same information and nothing else that the others have not been exposed to. Assuming all participants are healthy and mentally stable, you would still be faced with each individual's personal history, which would tend to fuck things up just a bit---lol! The closest thing to the truth is experience. If someone tells you to climb a high ladder that looks rotten, no matter how reassuring that person is, you are not going to trust that ladder. Even if a collective of individuals testifies to its strength, your truth will prevail. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things.

As a summary, I can't disagree but I would add biology with all of its inherent limitations, of which there are many, often distorting the very concept of truth by which truth is separated from fact and made personal.

Good point, truth experience is relative to the biology doing the experiencing, even where it contradicts physical reality or the collective belief. If the biology is impaired, the truth experience will reflect that impairment. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things, no matter what its state.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 9:25 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:17 pm

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 18, 2025 4:02 am

There is no truth but experience, and like I said, it's not infallible. The reasonable, logical way for an individual to seek truth is to dialogue, knowing each of the others has been subjected to the same information and nothing else that the others have not been exposed to. Assuming all participants are healthy and mentally stable, you would still be faced with each individual's personal history, which would tend to fuck things up just a bit---lol! The closest thing to the truth is experience. If someone tells you to climb a high ladder that looks rotten, no matter how reassuring that person is, you are not going to trust that ladder. Even if a collective of individuals testifies to its strength, your truth will prevail. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things.

As a summary, I can't disagree but I would add biology with all of its inherent limitations, of which there are many, often distorting the very concept of truth by which truth is separated from fact and made personal.

Good point, truth experience is relative to the biology doing the experiencing, even where it contradicts physical reality or the collective belief. If the biology is impaired, the truth experience will reflect that impairment. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things, no matter what its state.

Again I would say yes! Ultimately, biology defaults to the reality we experience and the values we endorse. Perhaps that's the reason AI is becoming a source of anxiety when no-longer chained or inhibited to the merely biological or its slow evolutionary consequences.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 7:29 pm

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 9:25 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:17 pm

As a summary, I can't disagree but I would add biology with all of its inherent limitations, of which there are many, often distorting the very concept of truth by which truth is separated from fact and made personal.

Good point, truth experience is relative to the biology doing the experiencing, even where it contradicts physical reality or the collective belief. If the biology is impaired, the truth experience will reflect that impairment. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things, no matter what its state.

Again I would say yes! Ultimately, biology defaults to the reality we experience and the values we endorse. Perhaps that's the reason AI is becoming a source of anxiety when no-longer chained or inhibited to the merely biological or its slow evolutionary consequences.

Wow, never thought of that unleashed unlimited adaptations and perspectives. Biology does not default to reality; reality defaults to biology.