Philosophy Now Forum

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:43 pm

I mean, I'm a conscious being and I seem to push atoms around rather frequently. What are we to make of that? Or what should I make of that?

Ants are not considered conscious, yet they push things around.

One can conclude that consciousness is not required to "push atoms".

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:47 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:43 pm

I mean, I'm a conscious being and I seem to push atoms around rather frequently. What are we to make of that? Or what should I make of that?

Ants are not considered conscious, yet they push things around.

One can conclude that consciousness is not required to "push atoms".

Sure. A rock falling off a ledge presumably isn't conscious either, however, it can cause dirt on the ground below it to move aside, forming a crater. That doesn't mean that other things (like consciousness) can't "push atoms" too, does it?

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:56 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:47 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:43 pm Ants are not considered conscious, yet they push things around.

One can conclude that consciousness is not required to "push atoms".

Sure. A rock falling off a ledge presumably isn't conscious either, however, it can cause dirt on the ground below it to move aside, forming a crater. That doesn't mean that other things (like consciousness) can't "push atoms" too, does it?

Let's say that's a possibility (that consciousness pushes atoms).

Why do you attribute your pushing of atoms to your consciousness rather than to a non-conscious pushing?

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:28 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:27 am

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:14 am

Why don't you define consciousness for us all?

How do you define an abstract idea. What is an idea? I have no idea.

Your turn.

You know what consciousness is but you can't put it into words?

Is that what you are saying here?

Because prior to pushing the atoms I desire to push them. If I did not, then presumably the atoms would either stay where they are or be pushed by something or someone else.

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:02 pm

Because prior to pushing the atoms I desire to push them. If I did not, then presumably the atoms would either stay where they are or be pushed by something or someone else.

Surely ants desire to take food back to the anthill, build tunnels, get nectar from aphids, etc.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:00 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:28 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:27 am

How do you define an abstract idea. What is an idea? I have no idea.

Your turn.

You know what consciousness is but you can't put it into words?

Is that what you are saying here?

You can know consciousness as a concept known...but you do not actually know what it is you are knowing ...how could you, you would have to be that thing you know.

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:05 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:00 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:28 pm You know what consciousness is but you can't put it into words?

Is that what you are saying here?

You can know consciousness as a concept known...but you do not actually know what it is you are knowing ...how could you, you would have to be that thing you know.

Didn't you already write exactly the same thing at least once before?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:08 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:05 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:00 pm

You can know consciousness as a concept known...but you do not actually know what it is you are knowing ...how could you, you would have to be that thing you know.

Didn't you already write exactly the same thing at least once before?

You cannot put what you have never seen into words...you can only put what you have seen into words...is that a better answer?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:04 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:02 pm

Because prior to pushing the atoms I desire to push them. If I did not, then presumably the atoms would either stay where they are or be pushed by something or someone else.

Surely ants desire to take food back to the anthill, build tunnels, get nectar from aphids, etc.

Sure. Perhaps they are conscious, perhaps they are not. I suspect they are conscious. But I wouldn't know how to demonstrate it.

Consciousness, at its simplest, is sentience or awareness of internal and external existence.[1] Despite millennia of analyses, definitions, explanations and debates by philosophers and scientists, consciousness remains puzzling and controversial,[2] being "at once the most familiar and [also the] most mysterious aspect of our lives".[3] Perhaps the only widely agreed notion about the topic is the intuition that consciousness exists.[4] Opinions differ about what exactly needs to be studied and explained as consciousness. Sometimes, it is synonymous with the mind, and at other times, an aspect of mind. In the past, it was one's "inner life", the world of introspection, of private thought, imagination and volition.[5] Today, it often includes any kind of cognition, experience, feeling or perception. It may be awareness, awareness of awareness, or self-awareness either continuously changing or not.[6][7] There might be different levels or orders of consciousness,[8] or different kinds of consciousness, or just one kind with different features.[9] Other questions include whether only humans are conscious, all animals, or even the whole universe. The disparate range of research, notions and speculations raises doubts about whether the right questions are being asked.[10]

Examples of the range of descriptions, definitions or explanations are: simple wakefulness, one's sense of selfhood or soul explored by "looking within"; being a metaphorical "stream" of contents, or being a mental state, mental event or mental process of the brain; having phanera or qualia and subjectivity; being the 'something that it is like' to 'have' or 'be' it; being the "inner theatre" or the executive control system of the mind.[11]

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:17 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:08 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:05 pm Didn't you already write exactly the same thing at least once before?

You cannot put what you have never seen into words...you can only put what you have seen into words...is that a better answer?

I've never seen the back side of the moon. Yet I seem to be able to put it into words.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:28 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:17 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:08 pm

You cannot put what you have never seen into words...you can only put what you have seen into words...is that a better answer?

I've never seen the back side of the moon. Yet I seem to be able to put it into words.

Only because you have seen a moon as an object of seeing. You know the concept ''moon'' and are able to re-create the image of that concept into an object known as moon in your mind.

Now, all you have to do is show us an image of the mind that knows the back side of the moon...what does the mind look like?

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:25 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:04 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:02 pm Surely ants desire to take food back to the anthill, build tunnels, get nectar from aphids, etc.

Sure. Perhaps they are conscious, perhaps they are not. I suspect they are conscious. But I wouldn't know how to demonstrate it.

One gets back to what people mean when they talk about 'consciousness'.

Consciousness, at its simplest, is sentience or awareness of internal and external existence.[1] Despite millennia of analyses, definitions, explanations and debates by philosophers and scientists, consciousness remains puzzling and controversial,[2] being "at once the most familiar and [also the] most mysterious aspect of our lives".[3] Perhaps the only widely agreed notion about the topic is the intuition that consciousness exists.[4] Opinions differ about what exactly needs to be studied and explained as consciousness. Sometimes, it is synonymous with the mind, and at other times, an aspect of mind. In the past, it was one's "inner life", the world of introspection, of private thought, imagination and volition.[5] Today, it often includes any kind of cognition, experience, feeling or perception. It may be awareness, awareness of awareness, or self-awareness either continuously changing or not.[6][7] There might be different levels or orders of consciousness,[8] or different kinds of consciousness, or just one kind with different features.[9] Other questions include whether only humans are conscious, all animals, or even the whole universe. The disparate range of research, notions and speculations raises doubts about whether the right questions are being asked.[10]

Examples of the range of descriptions, definitions or explanations are: simple wakefulness, one's sense of selfhood or soul explored by "looking within"; being a metaphorical "stream" of contents, or being a mental state, mental event or mental process of the brain; having phanera or qualia and subjectivity; being the 'something that it is like' to 'have' or 'be' it; being the "inner theatre" or the executive control system of the mind.[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:43 pm

I mean, I'm a conscious being and I seem to push atoms around rather frequently. What are we to make of that? Or what should I make of that?

Ants are not considered conscious, yet they push things around.

One can conclude that consciousness is not required to "push atoms".

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:40 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:28 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:17 pm

I've never seen the back side of the moon. Yet I seem to be able to put it into words.

Only because you have seen a moon as an object of seeing. You know the concept ''moon'' and are able to re-create the image of that concept into an object known as moon in your mind.

Now, all you have to do is show us an image of the mind that knows the back side of the moon...what does the mind look like?

I don't know what the mind "looks like," however, I can "put it into words" just the same.