Philosophy Now Forum

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:18 pm

fools

It's sad that you went down this road.

Ditto.

BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:51 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:38 pm I think it is important for me to not only impart my wisdom upon the matter of how an arrangement of atoms can form consciousness, but also the wisdom of leading members of science such as David Chalmers on this matter, so here is what we understand in all its detail:-

All that is a derailment and distraction. If David Chalmers, Roger Penrose, Stuart Hammeroff, or anybody else can show that consciousness can push atoms around, then I'm all ears. Short of that I really don't care.

It's not a derailment, it is insightful to comprehend the mind operation at the quantum level. (not that phycisists have much understanding of what actually goes on at that level)

Of course consciousness can 'push' atoms around. The conscious mind via synapses CAUSE information to travel along the neurons to effect muscle movement..no?

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:54 pm Finally: I'd be very interested in discussing your communications with your "sage"/"God" with you. Would you be open to that discussion? If so, would you prefer it to occur privately or are you open to a public discussion (and, if so, where?)?

Absolutely I would be open to a private discussion with you Harry, I'm about to have a busy morning but will PM you later an email address we could have a discussion on.

I will also address the previous page where your quote has some disagreement with what I was implying re real-time God.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:24 pm Of course consciousness can 'push' atoms around. The conscious mind via synapses CAUSE information to travel along the neurons to effect muscle movement..no?

The conscious mind does not "via synapses CAUSE information to travel along the neurons to effect muscle movement." The axon terminals release neurotransmitters into the synapse as a result of the action potential causing Ca++ ions to enter the terminal and alter proteins on the vesicle surfaces so that they fuse and dock to the neuron's inside wall and open a channel for neurotransmitters to flow through. There is no consciousness involved anywhere in the process.

BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:38 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:24 pm Of course consciousness can 'push' atoms around. The conscious mind via synapses CAUSE information to travel along the neurons to effect muscle movement..no?

The conscious mind does not "via synapses CAUSE information to travel along the neurons to effect muscle movement." The axon terminals release neurotransmitters into the synapse as a result of the action potential causing Ca++ ions to enter the terminal and alter proteins on the vesicle surfaces so that they fuse and dock to the neuron's inside wall and open a channel for neurotransmitters to flow through. There is no consciousness involved anywhere in the process.

So my conscious mind where I decide I want to reach out for my cup of tea, and bring it to my mouth for a sip, had nothing to do with it?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:43 pm

BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:38 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:24 pm Of course consciousness can 'push' atoms around. The conscious mind via synapses CAUSE information to travel along the neurons to effect muscle movement..no?

The conscious mind does not "via synapses CAUSE information to travel along the neurons to effect muscle movement." The axon terminals release neurotransmitters into the synapse as a result of the action potential causing Ca++ ions to enter the terminal and alter proteins on the vesicle surfaces so that they fuse and dock to the neuron's inside wall and open a channel for neurotransmitters to flow through. There is no consciousness involved anywhere in the process.

So my conscious mind where I decide I want to reach out for my cup of tea, and bring it to my mouth for a sip, had nothing to do with it?

Certainly not. This decision was made by your physical brain alone.

yeah the brain presents to awareness, to consciousness, a series of decisions each of which has its own reward potential, and the final choice consists of the decision taken after this series is analyzed. even an arbitrary act like raising your arm for no other conscious reason than to raise it, is not caused by the decision to raise it. that comes imperceivable fractions of a second later. your noodle is tricking you, fish. it's a very strange adaptation that. consciousnesses i mean. it's really not at all needed for an organism to flourish and seems in our case only to have evolved such complexity because we got thumbs and language.

BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:46 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:43 pm So my conscious mind where I decide I want to reach out for my cup of tea, and bring it to my mouth for a sip, had nothing to do with it?

Certainly not. This decision was made by your physical brain alone.

This is epiphenomenalism, the view which I've already pointed out is analytically defeated in the article Exit Epiphenomenalism: The Demolition of a Refuge by Titus Rivas & Hein van Dongen. Of course, as hq points out, disproofs such as this will simply be ignored by the fools of physicalism, who are only interested in evidence which supports their view.

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:56 pmHq, your efforts are heroic.

Nah.

You have been altogether too accommodating of these fools, hq, in allowing that you are open to a proof of mind out of matter.

I just gave 'em their shots. I'd like to say they missed the target, or are shootin' blanks, but not a one even stepped up to the line and took aim. Even so: the range is still open.

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:20 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:18 pm

fools

It's sad that you went down this road.

Ditto.

Since I didn't call you a fool, "ditto" doesn't make any sense.

But whatever.

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:50 am

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:20 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:18 pm
It's sad that you went down this road.

Ditto.

Since I didn't call you a fool, "ditto" doesn't make any sense.

But whatever.

Ditto referred to your comment, i.e., "It's sad that you went down this road" - in your case, the road of foolishness.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:43 am I just gave 'em their shots. I'd like to say they missed the target, or are shootin' blanks, but not a one even stepped up to the line and took aim. Even so: the range is still open.

You're over-generous in my view, but, of course, that only demonstrates all too clearly that that which is impossible has certainly not been attained by the fools of physicalism on this forum. Go on, though, fools: hit your target; shoot live rounds; step up to the line and take aim. As hq points out: the range is still open.

BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:46 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:43 pm

BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:38 pm

The conscious mind does not "via synapses CAUSE information to travel along the neurons to effect muscle movement." The axon terminals release neurotransmitters into the synapse as a result of the action potential causing Ca++ ions to enter the terminal and alter proteins on the vesicle surfaces so that they fuse and dock to the neuron's inside wall and open a channel for neurotransmitters to flow through. There is no consciousness involved anywhere in the process.

So my conscious mind where I decide I want to reach out for my cup of tea, and bring it to my mouth for a sip, had nothing to do with it?

Certainly not. This decision was made by your physical brain alone.

What are we defining as matter? We are likely to agree that an atom is matter, but is a particle also matter? Is a particle physical

BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:46 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:43 pm

BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:38 pm

The conscious mind does not "via synapses CAUSE information to travel along the neurons to effect muscle movement." The axon terminals release neurotransmitters into the synapse as a result of the action potential causing Ca++ ions to enter the terminal and alter proteins on the vesicle surfaces so that they fuse and dock to the neuron's inside wall and open a channel for neurotransmitters to flow through. There is no consciousness involved anywhere in the process.

So my conscious mind where I decide I want to reach out for my cup of tea, and bring it to my mouth for a sip, had nothing to do with it?

Certainly not. This decision was made by your physical brain alone.

The brain is the recorder of all events and action.. the brain is the instrument which represents reality and does not present it.

Reality is a presentation...which the brain recieves which is seen and known as representation of the brain.

So the decision was not made by the brain itself, the decision was only a recording ..in other words there is no decision maker, except as illusion manifest through the only instrument available, a physical brain.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:54 am
What are we defining as matter? We are likely to agree that an atom is matter, but is a particle also matter? Is a particle physical

Only what is known as a concept is something physical.

Think about the object that is known as a ''computer laptop'' that object is a physical thing, and the only way that physical thing can be known, is as a concept...and how a concept is known is through ''thought'' which is nothing...because no ''thought'' can be seen, or touched by a physical thing.

Only physical things are known...via their concept...and concepts are made of nothing...no thing.

Nothing is known, no thing, is literally known, via it's concept that no thing is knowing.

But that's just my two penny worth...I'm not saying to ought to agree with me.