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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:56 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:54 pm
Walker wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:47 pm
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:32 pm
if a miracle is something unexplained and unexplainable (by science) then rejecting all miracles amounts to believing that everything is explainable by science.
Rejecting the belief in miracles amounts to a belief in the omniscience of scientists. So you do believe in omniscient beings.
Awkward.
That's elegant reasoning. However, it won't make a dent in a God denier.
Nothing will. The point is that it's always possible to invent an alternate explanation for anything. One can even go to lengths of appealing to the miraculous in order to deny the miraculous: as when Atheists say that this universe happened by accident.
The sort of explaining one chooses for a given case is sometimes more a reflection of one's moral disposition than of the facts.
Manipulator.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:02 pm
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:52 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:48 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:52 pm
What a miracle that is for a human being to come to that realization.
Not such a miracle. Bitterness, confusion and self-absorption are everywhere in the human race. The miracle is when they stop for a few seconds.
"They"?
You constantly demonstrate all three. And I say that with all kindness, Gary. By your own account, you're one messed-up dude who spends all his time on wasteful bitterness and resentment, rather than taking on his problems and making things better. And you wonder why nobody wants to sign on to take that ride with you? Of course they don't. You're offering them a thoroughly unpleasant prospect. You need to make them a better offer; but you're so absorbed with yourself that you can't set about making the sorts of changes you need in order to make yourself loveable.
But if you sorted yourself out and got rid of the bitterness, any number of good things might still happen for you. Yet you seem to prefer misery. Somehow, you find it consoling to think you're being pitied, because you spend so much energy pitying yourself. What it is, though, is fear of failure if you try to make things better for yourself; so you'd rather be extravagantly miserable than take a risk and fail. So you choke off your own success before it can even start.
Go to a counsellor. If you don't like the ones you've been to, get another one. And don't quit until you get some help. Then sort out yourself, and maybe in a few years you can look back at a life you found pleasant, with somebody you find pleasant to be with. Or choose to stay as you are, I guess.
You seem to be a man in need of your own smaller-scale miracle. But I'm going to suggest that denying the miraculous won't get you what you need.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:05 pm
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:54 pm
No, it's denying that a God is responsible for things that happen on a daily basis. Please don't confuse things.
If it "happens on a daily basis," Gary, it's not a "miracle," by definition. And people who consider the miraculous know that: it's why they speak of particular events as a "miracle," rather than an "every day."
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:10 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:05 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:54 pm
No, it's denying that a God is responsible for things that happen on a daily basis. Please don't confuse things.
If it "happens on a daily basis," Gary, it's not a "miracle," by definition. And people who consider the miraculous know that: it's why they speak of particular events as a "miracle," rather than an "every day."
Forming a country is NOT a miracle. Do you ever tell things truthfully?
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:12 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:02 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:52 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:48 pm
Not such a miracle. Bitterness, confusion and self-absorption are everywhere in the human race. The miracle is when they stop for a few seconds.
"They"?
You constantly demonstrate all three. And I say that with all kindness, Gary. By your own account, you're one messed-up dude who spends all his time on wasteful bitterness and resentment, rather than taking on his problems and making things better. And you wonder why nobody wants to sign on to take that ride with you? Of course they don't. You're offering them a thoroughly unpleasant prospect. You need to make them a better offer; but you're so absorbed with yourself that you can't set about making the sorts of changes you need in order to make yourself loveable.
But if you sorted yourself out and got rid of the bitterness, any number of good things might still happen for you. Yet you seem to prefer misery. Somehow, you find it consoling to think you're being pitied, because you spend so much energy pitying yourself. What it is, though, is fear of failure if you try to make things better for yourself; so you'd rather be extravagantly miserable than take a risk and fail. So you choke off your own success before it can even start.
Go to a counsellor. If you don't like the ones you've been to, get another one. And don't quit until you get some help. Then sort out yourself, and maybe in a few years you can look back at a life you found pleasant, with somebody you find pleasant to be with. Or choose to stay as you are, I guess.
You seem to be a man in need of your own smaller-scale miracle. But I'm going to suggest that denying the miraculous won't get you what you need.
Whatever. Hopefully, there is a God and you'll be the first one to go to hell. Living in a world with you is hell enough for me.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:18 pm
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:10 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:05 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:54 pm
No, it's denying that a God is responsible for things that happen on a daily basis. Please don't confuse things.
If it "happens on a daily basis," Gary, it's not a "miracle," by definition. And people who consider the miraculous know that: it's why they speak of particular events as a "miracle," rather than an "every day."
Forming a country is NOT a miracle.
Re-forming a nation that has been devastated and scattered across the world is utterly unprecedented...especially that they should come back the very land God had foretold, in exactly the way He had prescribed. But you'll see it as you want to see it. And it will be what it is, either way.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:20 pm
by Immanuel Can
That's your problem. You'd rather choose "whatever" than make your own life better. You're stabbing yourself in the back, constantly, and then blaming the God you claim you don't believe in.
Everybody here sees it. Only you don't.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:21 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:18 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:10 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:05 pm
If it "happens on a daily basis," Gary, it's not a "miracle," by definition. And people who consider the miraculous know that: it's why they speak of particular events as a "miracle," rather than an "every day."
Forming a country is NOT a miracle.
Re-forming a nation that has been devastated and scattered across the world is utterly unprecedented...especially that they should come back the very land God had foretold, in exactly the way He had prescribed. But you'll see it as you want to see it. And it will be what it is, either way.
A self-fulfilling prophecy is NOT a miracle. It's a bunch of people who believe a book thousands of years old and then takeover and push residents out of a piece of land because their "God" wants them to (according to them).
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:21 pm
by Skepdick
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:54 pm
Nothing will. The point is that it's always possible to invent an alternate explanation for anything. One can even go to lengths of appealing to the miraculous in order to deny the miraculous: as when Atheists say that this universe happened by accident.
The sort of explaining one chooses for a given case is sometimes more a reflection of one's moral disposition than of the facts.
This is the trick of all Evolutionary reasoning.
If you pluralize the context enough then luck explains everything.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:22 pm
by Harbal
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:54 pm
One can even go to lengths of appealing to the miraculous in order to deny the miraculous: as when Atheists say that this universe happened by accident.
The ultimate origin of the universe, and the processes that enabled it to come into being, are unknown to all of us, so anyone who says it happened this way or that way, or it came about by accident or was deliberate, are either speculating or lying; unless their explanation is religious, in which case they are victims of deceit.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:23 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:20 pm
That's your problem. You'd rather choose "whatever" than make your own life better. You're stabbing yourself in the back, constantly, and then blaming the God you claim you don't believe in.
Everybody here sees it. Only you don't.
And every other person on here sees your lying conniving and fallacious twisting of the English language to "prove" that your book is the "one truth".
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:23 pm
by Skepdick
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:21 pm
A self-fulfilling prophecy is NOT a miracle. It's a bunch of people who believe a book thousands of years old and then takeover and push residents out of a piece of land because their "God" wants them to (according to them).
Can you explain it scientifically? No you can't.
Does it have agency beyond the laws of physics? Yes it does.
It's a miracle. By definition.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:25 pm
by Gary Childress
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:23 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:21 pm
A self-fulfilling prophecy is NOT a miracle. It's a bunch of people who believe a book thousands of years old and then takeover and push residents out of a piece of land because their "God" wants them to (according to them).
Can you explain it scientifically? No you can't.
Does it have agency beyond the laws of physics? Yes it does.
It's a miracle. By definition.
Do you even know what logic is?
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:27 pm
by Harbal
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:25 pm
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:23 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:21 pm
A self-fulfilling prophecy is NOT a miracle. It's a bunch of people who believe a book thousands of years old and then takeover and push residents out of a piece of land because their "God" wants them to (according to them).
Can you explain it scientifically? No you can't.
Does it have agency beyond the laws of physics? Yes it does.
It's a miracle. By definition.
Do you even know what logic is?
He's an idiot, Gary, do not make the mistake of taking him seriously.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:31 pm
by Gary Childress
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:27 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:25 pm
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:23 pm
Can you explain it scientifically? No you can't.
Does it have agency beyond the laws of physics? Yes it does.
It's a miracle. By definition.
Do you even know what logic is?
He's an idiot, Gary, do not make the mistake of taking him seriously.
He's intelligent. If it was sarcasm, then I apologize to Skeptic.