Philosophy Now Forum

promethean75 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 03, 2025 8:55 pm That should go without saying, though. IC can only have faith (not knowledge) about these matters. But atheists are usually polite enough not to ask them to openly admit that. Instead, the Christian argues for good reasons to believe in what he has faith in, and the atheist argues back that those aren't good reasons, so on and so forth.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Dec 03, 2025 4:48 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 02, 2025 8:42 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Dec 02, 2025 8:33 pm

Unless God is truly like a parent and doesn't know the future of their child with 100% certainty, and God doesn't have the ability to intervene for the good or the desire to intervene for the good of the child and the world, then you are making a false comparison.

No, if you think about it carefully, you'll realize what I'm telling you is logically right. My knowing about you replying doesn't even remotely imply I "made" you reply, even though, as it has turned out, my foreknowledge was 100% correct. You still have complete freedom of volition.

But you didn't "know" it ahead, you guessed based on past experience and high probability.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Dec 03, 2025 9:03 pm

promethean75 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 03, 2025 8:55 pm That should go without saying, though. IC can only have faith (not knowledge) about these matters. But atheists are usually polite enough not to ask them to openly admit that. Instead, the Christian argues for good reasons to believe in what he has faith in, and the atheist argues back that those aren't good reasons, so on and so forth.

If it goes without saying, then I would like to see IC also acknowledge it.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 03, 2025 10:20 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Dec 03, 2025 9:03 pm

promethean75 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 03, 2025 8:55 pm That should go without saying, though. IC can only have faith (not knowledge) about these matters. But atheists are usually polite enough not to ask them to openly admit that. Instead, the Christian argues for good reasons to believe in what he has faith in, and the atheist argues back that those aren't good reasons, so on and so forth.

If it goes without saying, then I would like to see IC also acknowledge it.

If it went without saying, he wouldn't have to say it.

But in point of fact, I'm still waiting to hear what "good reasons" there are for Atheism. And I'm yet to hear any.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 9:46 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 03, 2025 10:20 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Dec 03, 2025 9:03 pm

If it goes without saying, then I would like to see IC also acknowledge it.

If it went without saying, he wouldn't have to say it.

But in point of fact, I'm still waiting to hear what "good reasons" there are for Atheism. And I'm yet to hear any.

There are no "good" reasons for atheism. There are only "bad" reasons for atheism. If you think there is a just and righteous God overseeing this world, then let's all hope you are right. One thing is for sure, we are all at the mercy of forces much greater than anything we can handle or comprehend. Those forces are either working for us, against us or it's just a lottery. We will all die someday and how we have lived our lives will either make a difference or it won't.

promethean75 wrote: ↑
...the atheist argues back that those aren't good reasons,

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 2:14 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 9:46 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 03, 2025 10:20 pm
If it went without saying, he wouldn't have to say it.

But in point of fact, I'm still waiting to hear what "good reasons" there are for Atheism. And I'm yet to hear any.

There are no "good" reasons for atheism. There are only "bad" reasons for atheism. If you think there is a just and righteous God overseeing this world, then let's all hope you are right. One thing is for sure, we are all at the mercy of forces much greater than anything we can handle or comprehend. Those forces are either working for us, against us or it's just a lottery. We will all die someday and how we have lived our lives will either make a difference or it won't.

Well, Prom was saying...

promethean75 wrote: ↑
...the atheist argues back that those aren't good reasons,

I agree with you. There aren't any such reasons. Atheism's not about reason, but about presupposition or wish.

Yes, we are all caught up in something much bigger than we are. And we sometimes fool ourselves that the collective will solve this; but of course, you and I are still just individuals, with a fixed lifespan, only one pair of hands, living in a particular locale...

We're actually very small, you and I. It's wisdom that we see it, and take realistic stock of our own situation. That can grant us both realism and humility. Both the Tanakh, the OT, and the NT say this: "...what are mere mortals that You [God] should think about them, human beings that You should care for them?" Psalm 8:4, Hebrews 2:6. And yet, the implication and the explanation there are that God Himself does care for us, and very much, too. Why He should take notice of such small creatures as we are is a miracle of kindness of the first order.

But we are not insignificant. We are not valueless. We are not trivial, small and weak as we each may be. We are particular individuals, created by God Himself, with the intention we should adorn His eternity, if only we will accept His hand as it is extended to us in Jesus Christ. God has not left us to struggle alone; He has come to us and acted for us, and offered to us a hope we could otherwise never discover from the bare facts of our smallness and weakness.

And since God has spoken on this subject Himself, we need not merely "hope" in a vague way, but can have a secure hope in that God will care for us...and even if we have hitherto been adversaries to Him. For the Word says, "But God commends His love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." How much more, then, being saved by His death shall we be raised by His life?

So we matter. We all matter. Even those who don't know they matter, matter. And we matter to God.

Of course, we all want a benevolent God running the world. The question is whether or not it is the case that a benevolent God is running the world. No one "wishes" for anything other than a benevolent God to be running the world.

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 6:45 pm

Of course, we all want a benevolent God running the world. The question is whether or not it is the case that a benevolent God is running the world. No one "wishes" for anything other than a benevolent God to be running the world.

I'm pretty sure that's false.

There are lots of people who don't want a god "running the world".

Of course, it all depends on what "running the world" actually means in practice.

Do you want your parents running your life?

Maybe I should have said "behind the scenes" then. Apparently, God is supposed to enforce moral justice. So I take that to imply that God plays an active role in the world s/he created, if there is a God.

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 7:41 pm

Maybe I should have said "behind the scenes" then. Apparently, God is supposed to enforce moral justice. So I take that to imply that God plays an active role in the world s/he created, if there is a God.

There are lots of ideas about gods and what role they play in the world.

To clarify, you are referring to a "christian God".

And that God doesn't enforce moral justice :
"He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. " Mathew 5:45 NIV

As you can see by just looking around.

OK. I guess it just sucks to be some of the victims of the more horrendous ways to die.

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 9:10 pm

OK. I guess it just sucks to be some of the victims of the more horrendous ways to die.

Well, if it makes you feel better, you can believe that the evil will be punished in the afterlife and the good will live forever with God.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 5:47 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 2:14 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 9:46 am

There are no "good" reasons for atheism. There are only "bad" reasons for atheism. If you think there is a just and righteous God overseeing this world, then let's all hope you are right. One thing is for sure, we are all at the mercy of forces much greater than anything we can handle or comprehend. Those forces are either working for us, against us or it's just a lottery. We will all die someday and how we have lived our lives will either make a difference or it won't.

Well, Prom was saying...

promethean75 wrote: ↑
...the atheist argues back that those aren't good reasons,

I agree with you. There aren't any such reasons. Atheism's not about reason, but about presupposition or wish.

Yes, we are all caught up in something much bigger than we are. And we sometimes fool ourselves that the collective will solve this; but of course, you and I are still just individuals, with a fixed lifespan, only one pair of hands, living in a particular locale...

We're actually very small, you and I. It's wisdom that we see it, and take realistic stock of our own situation. That can grant us both realism and humility. Both the Tanakh, the OT, and the NT say this: "...what are mere mortals that You [God] should think about them, human beings that You should care for them?" Psalm 8:4, Hebrews 2:6. And yet, the implication and the explanation there are that God Himself does care for us, and very much, too. Why He should take notice of such small creatures as we are is a miracle of kindness of the first order.

But we are not insignificant. We are not valueless. We are not trivial, small and weak as we each may be. We are particular individuals, created by God Himself, with the intention we should adorn His eternity, if only we will accept His hand as it is extended to us in Jesus Christ. God has not left us to struggle alone; He has come to us and acted for us, and offered to us a hope we could otherwise never discover from the bare facts of our smallness and weakness.

And since God has spoken on this subject Himself, we need not merely "hope" in a vague way, but can have a secure hope in that God will care for us...and even if we have hitherto been adversaries to Him. For the Word says, "But God commends His love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." How much more, then, being saved by His death shall we be raised by His life?

So we matter. We all matter. Even those who don't know they matter, matter. And we matter to God.

Of course, we all want a benevolent God running the world. The question is whether or not it is the case that a benevolent God is running the world.

Few "wish" to be an atheist if it isn't a true state of affairs...

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 9:20 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 9:10 pm

OK. I guess it just sucks to be some of the victims of the more horrendous ways to die.

Well, if it makes you feel better, you can believe that the evil will be punished in the afterlife and the good will live forever with God.

Then I have a feeling that either most of us will end up in heaven or most of us will end up in hell, depending upon where the line between good and evil is drawn. Unless it's split 50/50 as some kind of statistical rule.