Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 8:51 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 8:37 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 8:03 pm
Oh? That's what you think a "debate" is?

Why do you conclude that? That's not logical. If my country is my country, that doesn't mean nobody else can live there. It just means that I have the primary right to live there, if anybody does.

That is what you say but Israelis apparently do not agree with you.

Apparently, they do. They have a significant proportion of Arab citizens all the time, and a smaller one of Christians. It's also Israel that's been campaigning for the "two state" solution, and getting rejected by the Palestinians every time. So I'd say you're not particularly well-informed about that. But you can find out the facts for yourself, so you don't even have to trust me on all that. It's all public record.

Yes, there are Arabs that are currently live in Israel. I am not talking about them. As I said, Israelis interpret the verse that they have all rights on the land, forcing Palestinians to leave the land, build towns in the occupied areas, and migrate Jews there.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 8:51 pm Apparently, they do. They have a significant proportion of Arab citizens all the time, and a smaller one of Christians. It's also Israel that's been campaigning for the "two state" solution, and getting rejected by the Palestinians every time. So I'd say you're not particularly well-informed about that. But you can find out the facts for yourself, so you don't even have to trust me on all that. It's all public record.

Poll shows large swaths of Israeli youth hate Arabs, back revoking citizenship.

Nearly half of Jewish Israelis want to expel Arabs, survey shows.

Pew study finds 79% believe Jews should get preferential treatment over Arab citizens; number of those who believe settlements are helpful to Israel’s security growing; majority identify as centrist.

The Guardian: Arabs in Israel face reprisals over online solidarity with Gaza.

Citizens who post on social media in support of Palestinians under bombardment threatened with arrest or sacking.

Council on Foreign Relations: Arabs represent one-fifth of Israel’s population. Systemic discrimination, outbreaks of communal violence, and the broader Israeli-Palestinian conflict continue to strain their ties with Israel’s Jewish majority.

Israeli Arabs respond to the question: Are you living under occupation?

Anti-Arab sentiment in Israel

Why Are Palestinian Christians Leaving Jesus’ Birthplace?

You can put as many quotes and links as you want ... IC will just ignore all of them, unless they confirm his beliefs. (Going by past behavior.)

I forgot this one: Abby Martin interviews Israelis (and some Jewish Americans) on the street.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 9:54 pm I forgot this one: Abby Martin interviews Israelis (and some Jewish Americans) on the street.

THese Americans are paid to move to Israel, and are given the homes lived in for generations by Palestinians.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/2 ... salem-home

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-60052131

Posted October 26 at its website, a Globe and Mail [Canadian newspaper] columnist wrote how during a recent concert at Vancouver’s Hollywood Theatre, “a band member said something about a free Palestine. This, according to attendee Hanah Van Borek, led to a few shouts from the audience: ‘Fuck the Jews!’

"It was clearly audible in her area of the crowd, a person who was with her confirms, but nobody around them shut this down. There were some cheers of support, though. ‘My whole body went into shock,’ says Ms. Van Borek, who is Jewish.

“Ms. Van Borek left the venue and explained why to security staff. She says a worker encouraged her to go back inside and reassured her she was safe. ‘Nobody will be able to tell that you’re Jewish,’ he said, according to Ms. Van Borek. (Oy.)

"She did return to the show, but Ms. Van Borek was — and is — rattled. She supports the band’s right to make political statements. It was the shouts from this group — and the silence around them — that were alarming.”

I have long been, and still am, publicly critical [mostly via published letters to editors] of what I see as clear maltreatment of the general Palestinian people by the state of Israel [i.e. its government and security/defense agencies] and, with few exceptions, Western mainstream news-media’s seemingly intentional tokenistic (non)coverage of it.

By doing so, that media, whether they realize it or not, have done a disservice to its own reputation and the Israeli/Jewish people themselves. The road to hell, after all, is also paved with good intentions. Not as widely criticized thus publicized as the violence are the considerable fossil fuel reserves beneath long-held Palestinian land that are a plausible motivator for war.

Perhaps mostly because I have no Jewish heritage thus experience, I still never expected the level of anti-Semitic attacks in the West since the initial Hamas attack against Israelis. For one thing, the Jewish people in Israel and especially around the world must not be collectively vilified, let alone physically attacked, for the acts of Israel’s government and military, however one feels about the latter’s brutality in Gaza.

It’s plainly wrong for them to be mistreated, if not terrorized, as though they were responsible for what is happening there. And it should be needless to say that diaspora Palestinians and Western Muslims similarly must not be collectively blamed and attacked for the acts of Hamas violence in Israel or Islamic extremist attacks outside the Middle East.

There seems to have been much latent animosity towards Jewish people in general, perhaps in part based on erroneous and disproven stereotypes thus completely unmerited. Also, incredible insensitivity was publicly shown towards Jews freshly mourning the 10/7 victims, especially when considering that young Israelis and Jews elsewhere may not be accustomed to such relatively large-scale carnage (at least not as much as is seen in other parts of the Middle East) in post-9/11 times.

Having the top-mentioned (in The Globe and Mail) ugly occurrence playout in my mind’s eye and ear left me disgusted. Particularly disturbing is the Jewish woman attending the concert being told by an employee there that she shouldn’t worry about the loudly voiced anti-Jewish anger, since “nobody will be able to tell that you’re Jewish”. (!?!)

But also concerning about all of the highly publicized two-way partisan exchanges of fury is: what will young diaspora Jewish and Palestinian children think and feel if/when they hear such misdirected vile hatred towards their fundamental identity? Scary is the real possibility that such public outpour of blind hatred may lead some young children to feel very misplaced shame in their heritage.

And then there's the ugly external politics of polarization, perhaps in part for its own sake. Particularly with the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, current and past, one can observe widespread ideological/political partisanship via news and commentary. Within social media the polarized views are especially amplified, including, if not especially, those of non-Jews and non-Palestinians.

While the conflict can and does arouse a spectator sport effect or mentality, many contemptible news trolls residing outside the region actively decide which ‘side’ they hate less thus ‘support’ via politicized commentary posts. I anticipate many actually keep track of the bloody match by checking the day’s-end death-toll score, however lopsided the numbers.

Why are you posting this again?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 10:01 pm

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 9:54 pm I forgot this one: Abby Martin interviews Israelis (and some Jewish Americans) on the street.

THese Americans are paid to move to Isreal, and are given the homes lived in for generations by Palestinians.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/2 ... salem-home

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-60052131

But of course you have nothing to do with 'Mainstream media' because it's 'all lies'

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 10:01 pm THese Americans are paid to move to Isreal, and are given the homes lived in for generations by Palestinians.

I'm not so certain it Isreal.

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 9:01 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 8:51 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 8:37 pm
That is what you say but Israelis apparently do not agree with you.

Apparently, they do. They have a significant proportion of Arab citizens all the time, and a smaller one of Christians. It's also Israel that's been campaigning for the "two state" solution, and getting rejected by the Palestinians every time. So I'd say you're not particularly well-informed about that. But you can find out the facts for yourself, so you don't even have to trust me on all that. It's all public record.

Yes, there are Arabs that are currently live in Israel. I am not talking about them.

Why not? And why aren't you talking about the Christians and Muslims who live peacefully in Israel? And how about all the other people who would not be allowed to live in Gaza or the West Bank, but are in Israel? And why aren't you talking about the Palestinians repeatedly rejecting peace and the two-state solution? And why aren't we talking about the Hamas massacre, or their long-standing tyranny, of their use of civilians as shields? Why are these irrelevant facts, in your consideration?

Something's terribly skewed in how we're currently weighing the facts, wouldn't it be fair to say?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 6:01 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 10:01 pm THese Americans are paid to move to Isreal, and are given the homes lived in for generations by Palestinians.

I'm not so certain it Isreal.

"it Isreal"??
The occupied territories.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 6:10 am

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 9:01 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 8:51 pm
Apparently, they do. They have a significant proportion of Arab citizens all the time, and a smaller one of Christians. It's also Israel that's been campaigning for the "two state" solution, and getting rejected by the Palestinians every time. So I'd say you're not particularly well-informed about that. But you can find out the facts for yourself, so you don't even have to trust me on all that. It's all public record.

Yes, there are Arabs that are currently live in Israel. I am not talking about them.

Why not? And why aren't you talking about the Christians and Muslims who live peacefully in Israel?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 9:26 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 6:01 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 10:01 pm THese Americans are paid to move to Isreal, and are given the homes lived in for generations by Palestinians.

I'm not so certain it Isreal.

"it Isreal"??
The occupied territories.

The inputs to the five senses?? Descartes and all that!!

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 9:52 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 9:26 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 6:01 am

I'm not so certain it Isreal.

"it Isreal"??
The occupied territories.

The inputs to the five senses?? Descartes and all that!!

Oh I see. fuck off .