Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:21 pm There are a significant number of narcissists, trolls, cynics, Nihilists, sociopaths, criminals, opportunists, relativists, Social Darwinists, eugenicists, racists, rapists, totalitarians and so forth around today, as there have always been.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 7:13 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:40 pm Which is it? Was it "developed" or "discovered"? It makes a huge difference.

We have to choose a story here. The two don't agree.

It seems to be both when it is examined carefully.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:22 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:21 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:16 pm
Why not? It's "now" that he raised the issue. So the timing is his, not mine. And if he has thought these things through properly, which in charity I must assume he has, he doubtless has an answer at hand. I'm just wondering what it might be.

The timing is that of God, IC.

Of Harbal, rather. It was not God who raised the issue now; though if you like to think of it this way, you might say God permitted Harbal to raise it.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:23 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:21 pm There are a significant number of narcissists, trolls, cynics, Nihilists, sociopaths, criminals, opportunists, relativists, Social Darwinists, eugenicists, racists, rapists, totalitarians and so forth around today, as there have always been.

Do not fear, IC. Harbal is none of those things.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:25 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:23 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:21 pm There are a significant number of narcissists, trolls, cynics, Nihilists, sociopaths, criminals, opportunists, relativists, Social Darwinists, eugenicists, racists, rapists, totalitarians and so forth around today, as there have always been.

Do not fear, IC. Harbal is none of those things.

I never said he was. But he lives in a world where plenty of such exist, and where the well-meaning members of his society need to know what to do in response to their existence, to know why they do it, and that they are right to do it.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:21 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:57 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 5:27 pm

"How do you know that Jew killing, or slavery or rape or pedophilia are to be rightly classified as bad, cruel or malicious?"

I only know them to be rightly classified as bad as measured against my own framework of moral values. I can't say they are objectively bad, I can only declare them bad in my opinion.

So do you have good reasons, reasons other people could use, that would justify your claim that these things are, in a general and compelling sense, "bad" rather than, say, merely incidental, neutral, optional -- or even laudable, if they serve some purpose like engineering a new kind of desired society or maximizing, at least, the perpetrator's sense of pleasure?

I could only appeal to their sense of morality. If they didn't have such a sense, I fear I would make little progress with them, but, fortunately, most people do have such a sense.

But plenty don't. There are a significant number of narcissists, trolls, cynics, Nihilists, sociopaths, criminals, opportunists, relativists, Social Darwinists, eugenicists, racists, rapists, totalitarians and so forth around today, as there have always been. And a society needs to have an explanation for the sake of good people as to why they are justified in arresting or resisting the "bad" activities and beliefs of such people. What help or information does your view provide for them as they attempt to structure a society, enact just systems, or put an end to "cruel or malicious" activities?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:26 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:25 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:23 pm Do not fear, IC. Harbal is none of those things.

I never said he was. But he lives in a world where plenty of such exist, and where the well-meaning members of his society need to know what to do in response to their existence, to know why they do it, and that they are right to do it.

How do you know those things truly exist?

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:21 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:57 pm
I only know them to be rightly classified as bad as measured against my own framework of moral values. I can't say they are objectively bad, I can only declare them bad in my opinion.


I could only appeal to their sense of morality. If they didn't have such a sense, I fear I would make little progress with them, but, fortunately, most people do have such a sense.

But plenty don't. There are a significant number of narcissists, trolls, cynics, Nihilists, sociopaths, criminals, opportunists, relativists, Social Darwinists, eugenicists, racists, rapists, totalitarians and so forth around today, as there have always been. And a society needs to have an explanation for the sake of good people as to why they are justified in arresting or resisting the "bad" activities and beliefs of such people. What help or information does your view provide for them as they attempt to structure a society, enact just systems, or put an end to "cruel or malicious" activities?

I've read your reply several times, and I can't quite figure out what you are asking me. What help or information does your view provide for them? Tell me that and it might help me to figure out what sort of answer I need to give you.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:50 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:26 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:25 pm
I never said he was. But he lives in a world where plenty of such exist, and where the well-meaning members of his society need to know what to do in response to their existence, to know why they do it, and that they are right to do it.

How do you know those things truly exist?

Do you not know that they do? C'mon, Gary... I don't even need to make that case.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:50 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:26 pm
How do you know those things truly exist?

Do you not know that they do? C'mon, Gary... I don't even need to make that case.

What makes you think those things truly exist?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:24 pm

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 7:13 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:40 pm Which is it? Was it "developed" or "discovered"? It makes a huge difference.

We have to choose a story here. The two don't agree.

It seems to be both when it is examined carefully.

They are different stories, and they contradict. Which one will you go with? Was morality already "there" to be "discovered," or did humans "develop" it themselves?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 11:08 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:50 pm
Do you not know that they do? C'mon, Gary... I don't even need to make that case.

What makes you think those things truly exist?

Gary, Gary, Gary...just watch the news, and you'll find plenty. Or read a history book. Or visit a courtroom or jail. Just leave the house once in a while, and that'll be enough.