Philosophy Now Forum

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 4:56 pm Lenin is more tricky. People who might wish to do good find themselves in the thick of it, and end up doing bad things.
You can't make omelettes without breaking feudal aristocratic eggs,

Except from the sounds of it, some of those eggs were those of the working class, not just the aristocrats.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:31 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 4:56 pm Lenin is more tricky. People who might wish to do good find themselves in the thick of it, and end up doing bad things.
You can't make omelettes without breaking feudal aristocratic eggs,

Except from the sounds of it, some of those eggs were those of the working class, not just the aristocrats.

revolutions are messy
The power of the symbol is strong. How many Americans signed up for Vietnam, fighting against something they were basically ignorant of.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:35 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:31 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 4:56 pm Lenin is more tricky. People who might wish to do good find themselves in the thick of it, and end up doing bad things.
You can't make omelettes without breaking feudal aristocratic eggs,

Except from the sounds of it, some of those eggs were those of the working class, not just the aristocrats.

revolutions are messy
The power of the symbol is strong. How many Americans signed up for Vietnam, fighting against something they were basically ignorant of.

Unfortunately, we're talking about Lenin breaking up the worker soviets, not the Vietnam War. You don't have to approve of Lenin in order to be against the Vietnam War.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:38 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:35 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:31 pm

Except from the sounds of it, some of those eggs were those of the working class, not just the aristocrats.

revolutions are messy
The power of the symbol is strong. How many Americans signed up for Vietnam, fighting against something they were basically ignorant of.

Unfortunately, we're talking about Lenin breaking up the worker soviets, not the Vietnam War. You don't have to approve of Lenin in order to be against the Vietnam War.

People fight against their own interests.
The Vietnamese also did many things contrary to their belief system because of the need to protect their country from foreign invaders.
People even do things against their own stated principles when not under any real threat; this characterises the US supporting a Catholic dictatorship in Vietnam, and murdering thousands of innocent people.

Let's bring that back full circle to Murdoch.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:41 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:38 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:35 pm
revolutions are messy
The power of the symbol is strong. How many Americans signed up for Vietnam, fighting against something they were basically ignorant of.

Unfortunately, we're talking about Lenin breaking up the worker soviets, not the Vietnam War. You don't have to approve of Lenin in order to be against the Vietnam War.

People fight against their own interests.
The Vietnamese also did many things contrary to their belief system because of the need to protect their country from foreign invaders.
People even do things against their own stated principles when not under any real threat; this characterises the US supporting a Catholic dictatorship in Vietnam, and murdering thousands of innocent people.

Lenin was wrong and the Vietnam war was wrong. How about that?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:43 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:41 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:38 pm

Unfortunately, we're talking about Lenin breaking up the worker soviets, not the Vietnam War. You don't have to approve of Lenin in order to be against the Vietnam War.

People fight against their own interests.
The Vietnamese also did many things contrary to their belief system because of the need to protect their country from foreign invaders.
People even do things against their own stated principles when not under any real threat; this characterises the US supporting a Catholic dictatorship in Vietnam, and murdering thousands of innocent people.

Lenin was wrong and the Vietnam war was wrong. How about that?

Let's bring that back full circle to Murdoch.
THere is nothing strange here, except that Murdoch perhaps saw Lenin as a pragmatist willing to do anything for a cause.
The difference is that Murdoch's cause was Murdoch.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:44 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:43 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:41 pm

People fight against their own interests.
The Vietnamese also did many things contrary to their belief system because of the need to protect their country from foreign invaders.
People even do things against their own stated principles when not under any real threat; this characterises the US supporting a Catholic dictatorship in Vietnam, and murdering thousands of innocent people.

Lenin was wrong and the Vietnam war was wrong. How about that?

Let's bring that back full circle to Murdoch.
THere is nothing strange here, except that Murdoch perhaps saw Lenin as a pragmatist willing to do anything for a cause.
The difference is that Murdoch's cause was Murdoch.

Well, that's probably true.

Although reading about the incident between Murdoch and the labor unions in 1986, it does sound like the English press was extremely inefficient and outdated in its methods of operation at the time.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2011/ ... g-25-years

I suppose Murdoch might say he did what he had to do for a cause, the cause being to bring the news industry up to date in England. In that sense, he might have considered himself doing what was best for the industry and the country or something, along the same lines as Lenin having to make decisions that would affect the fate of so many ordinary people in the Soviet Union. Who knows...

I don't know if it's people or something about the institutions we find ourselves engaging in. But it seems likely (or at least one hopes) that there were ways of bringing about positive change to the news industry without destroying so many people's lives in the process.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 12:44 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 11:52 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 10:15 am

Don't knock em till you tried em.
For some people, that is all they have, or could ever had.

You can make the same excuse for people who cling to superstitious versions of Christianity.

Agreed.
I rather die of heroin addiction than submit to the love of Jesus Fuckingchrist.

Not me! I'd rather escape to the supernaturalist majority.(If they were the majority). There are worse fates than superstition. For me to be superstitious would be for me to regress to what I was, and I could recover lost ground. Silly beliefs may become dangerously fanatical but extreme drug addiction is always lethal.

I admire your authenticity.

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 9:07 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 12:44 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 11:52 am
You can make the same excuse for people who cling to superstitious versions of Christianity.

Agreed.
I rather die of heroin addiction than submit to the love of Jesus Fuckingchrist.

Not me! I'd rather escape to the supernaturalist majority. There are worse fates than superstition. For me to be superstitious would be for me to regress to what I was, and I could recover lost ground. Silly beliefs may become dangerously fanatical but extreme drug addiction is always lethal.

No extreme drug addiction is not always lethal.
But if you succumb to self deception and lies, you might as well be dead.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 9:10 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 9:07 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 12:44 pm
Agreed.
I rather die of heroin addiction than submit to the love of Jesus Fuckingchrist.

Not me! I'd rather escape to the supernaturalist majority. There are worse fates than superstition. For me to be superstitious would be for me to regress to what I was, and I could recover lost ground. Silly beliefs may become dangerously fanatical but extreme drug addiction is always lethal.

No extreme drug addiction is not always lethal.
But if you succumb to self deception and lies, you might as well be dead.

That sounds like what Jesus and Socrates did. I agree with you I simply don't know if I could do it. I'd like to hope so.

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 9:16 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 9:10 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 9:07 am

Not me! I'd rather escape to the supernaturalist majority. There are worse fates than superstition. For me to be superstitious would be for me to regress to what I was, and I could recover lost ground. Silly beliefs may become dangerously fanatical but extreme drug addiction is always lethal.

No extreme drug addiction is not always lethal.
But if you succumb to self deception and lies, you might as well be dead.

That sounds like what Jesus and Socrates did. I agree with you I simply don't know if I could do it. I'd like to hope so.

I don't think it is hard.
The trouble is to know exactly when you might have succumb to a lie or other deception without you realising it.
Drugs can be fun, as long as you are smart. I'm not bothered much these days, though. In fact I rarely even touch alcohol. Food is always a lure though!
Given that I've had most drugs at some point, without suffering from addiction, I have to question just how addictive they really are.
Depends on who you are I suppose.
Food is the drug you have to have everyday, so addiction is part of the game.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:41 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:38 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:35 pm
revolutions are messy
The power of the symbol is strong. How many Americans signed up for Vietnam, fighting against something they were basically ignorant of.

Unfortunately, we're talking about Lenin breaking up the worker soviets, not the Vietnam War. You don't have to approve of Lenin in order to be against the Vietnam War.

People fight against their own interests.
The Vietnamese also did many things contrary to their belief system because of the need to protect their country from foreign invaders.
People even do things against their own stated principles when not under any real threat; this characterises the US supporting a Catholic dictatorship in Vietnam, and murdering thousands of innocent people.

Let's bring that back full circle to Murdoch.

the whole Veitnam debacal interests me. ya i know the SV gov was corrupt, but the people i assume preferred it to the NV (some at least). do you much about that war? asking because i do not. other than it was a dumb war. and one to fail in my side.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 9:10 am But if you succumb to self deception and lies, you might as well be dead.

The problem with that is the one's who fall for it don't know they're falling for it. That may be due to stupidity or plain ignorance, mostly the former who are immune to explanation and don't realize they're stupid and so have no reason to wish they were dead. When stupidity becomes a ritual it strives to be intellectual.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 12:38 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 9:10 am But if you succumb to self deception and lies, you might as well be dead.

The problem with that is the one's who fall for it don't know they're falling for it. That may be due to stupidity or plain ignorance, mostly the former who are immune to explanation and don't realize they're stupid and so have no reason to wish they were dead. When stupidity becomes a ritual it strives to be intellectual.

The question is how to free children and open minded adults from the chains of stupidity to the freedom of reason. Nazism is a case in point. Germany was overrun by Nazis because Germans' minds were enthralled by Nazism . Why this happened as an actual historical event is usually said to be due to the Treaty of Versailles, and largely aided by Hitler's opportunism. The Treaty of Versailles was bad social psychology. Opportunistic politicians are still with us and always will be.