The Philosophy Discussion Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 1:30 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 1:16 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2026 11:18 pm
Yup. But it wasn't anything special. It didn't at all make clear why "natural selection" was anything other than "random." It just insisted that somehow (presumably somehow we're supposed to imagine for the writer) it just wasn't.

Can you answer the following:

Yes, no, or unsure: Is evolution a random process?

Tell me what you mean by your use of the word "random."

By "random," I mean anything and everything can possibly happen if something is "random".

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 1:38 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 1:30 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 1:16 am

Can you answer the following:

Yes, no, or unsure: Is evolution a random process?

Tell me what you mean by your use of the word "random."

By "random," I mean anything and everything can possibly happen if something is "random".

Do you mean "ungoverned by any natural law or principle"? Do you mean "without goal, telos or purpose?" I'm guessing, on the basis of your wording above, that you do. "Anything and everything" would surely have to include those two things.

Am I right? Is that what you meant?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 1:45 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 1:38 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 1:30 pm
Tell me what you mean by your use of the word "random."

By "random," I mean anything and everything can possibly happen if something is "random".

Do you mean "ungoverned by any natural law or principle"? Do you mean "without goal, telos or purpose?" I'm guessing, on the basis of your wording above, that you do. "Anything and everything" would surely have to include those two things.

Am I right? Is that what you meant?

No. I mean exactly the words I used as I used them. Do you think evolution is "random" according to the definition I gave you?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:01 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 1:45 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 1:38 pm

By "random," I mean anything and everything can possibly happen if something is "random".

Do you mean "ungoverned by any natural law or principle"? Do you mean "without goal, telos or purpose?" I'm guessing, on the basis of your wording above, that you do. "Anything and everything" would surely have to include those two things.

Am I right? Is that what you meant?

No. I mean exactly the words I used as I used them. Do you think evolution is "random" according to the definition I gave you?

Well, since I don't believe in evolution, you may as well ask me which unicorn I ride. But since you do believe in it, I have to pose the question to you: does your theory about evolution require it to be random, or do you suppose that some sort of governance of it is going on?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:25 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:01 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 1:45 pm
Do you mean "ungoverned by any natural law or principle"? Do you mean "without goal, telos or purpose?" I'm guessing, on the basis of your wording above, that you do. "Anything and everything" would surely have to include those two things.

Am I right? Is that what you meant?

No. I mean exactly the words I used as I used them. Do you think evolution is "random" according to the definition I gave you?

Well, since I don't believe in evolution, you may as well ask me which unicorn I ride. But since you do believe in it, I have to pose the question to you: does your theory about evolution require it to be random, or do you suppose that some sort of governance of it is going on?

I don't think evolution is random, if that's what you mean. Am I wrong?

Since you claim not to believe in evolution, can you describe how we all got here? How long did it take God to create all the species we now see on Earth and whose fossils we encounter in the ground?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:29 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:25 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:01 pm

No. I mean exactly the words I used as I used them. Do you think evolution is "random" according to the definition I gave you?

Well, since I don't believe in evolution, you may as well ask me which unicorn I ride. But since you do believe in it, I have to pose the question to you: does your theory about evolution require it to be random, or do you suppose that some sort of governance of it is going on?

I don't think evolution is random, if that's what you mean. Am I wrong?

Okay, what's governing it?

Since you claim not to believe in evolution, can you describe how we all got here?

Beyond Genesis? No, obviously. I wasn't alive then. Nor was anybody you can refer to today.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:32 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:29 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:25 pm
Well, since I don't believe in evolution, you may as well ask me which unicorn I ride. But since you do believe in it, I have to pose the question to you: does your theory about evolution require it to be random, or do you suppose that some sort of governance of it is going on?

I don't think evolution is random, if that's what you mean. Am I wrong?

Okay, what's governing it?

Since you claim not to believe in evolution, can you describe how we all got here?

Beyond Genesis? No, obviously. I wasn't alive then. Nor was anybody you can refer to today.

I don't know that evolution is "governed". Do you think it's "governed"?

It's governed by the physical laws of the universe

phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:38 pm It's governed by the physical laws of the universe

The fine-tuning arguments propose the following questions.

From where do those laws derive? The universe is not eternal, so they must have begun somewhere and somehow. And marvelously, they seem to cohere and to form around incredibly miniscule margins of error permissive of everything from material integrity to the conditions necessary for life and for intelligent observers to exist. So how did that become possible?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:35 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:32 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:29 pm

I don't think evolution is random, if that's what you mean. Am I wrong?

Okay, what's governing it?

Since you claim not to believe in evolution, can you describe how we all got here?

Beyond Genesis? No, obviously. I wasn't alive then. Nor was anybody you can refer to today.

I don't know that evolution is "governed". Do you think it's "governed"?

Well, "governed" is the opposite of "random." If something is not "random," then something is limiting the range of possibilities that is allowed -- it's being "governed" by something. So all I'm asking is, what sort of a thing do you (or your theory of evolution) imagine is capable of doing that?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:42 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:35 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:32 pm
Okay, what's governing it?

Beyond Genesis? No, obviously. I wasn't alive then. Nor was anybody you can refer to today.

I don't know that evolution is "governed". Do you think it's "governed"?

Well, "governed" is the opposite of "random." If something is not "random," then something is limiting the range of possibilities that is allowed -- it's being "governed" by something. So all I'm asking is, what sort of a thing do you (or your theory of evolution) imagine is capable of doing that?

The opposite of random, as I defined "random" to you, would be that anything and everything cannot happen. If you wish to choose the word "governed" as a synonym, then I would ask you if the governor of evolution is elected or appointed. Words have connotations. And since you are a stickler for smuggling arguments into definitions and then telling people that that is how they have to define something, I'm not going to play the equivocation game with you because it's clearly a fallacious one. Perhaps it would be best to use "patterned" instead of "governed". Does that sound fair?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:50 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:42 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:35 pm

I don't know that evolution is "governed". Do you think it's "governed"?

Well, "governed" is the opposite of "random." If something is not "random," then something is limiting the range of possibilities that is allowed -- it's being "governed" by something. So all I'm asking is, what sort of a thing do you (or your theory of evolution) imagine is capable of doing that?

The opposite of random, as I defined "random" to you, would be that anything and everything cannot happen.

What's preventing the "everything and anything" happening? What agency is creating that?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:55 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:50 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:42 pm
Well, "governed" is the opposite of "random." If something is not "random," then something is limiting the range of possibilities that is allowed -- it's being "governed" by something. So all I'm asking is, what sort of a thing do you (or your theory of evolution) imagine is capable of doing that?

The opposite of random, as I defined "random" to you, would be that anything and everything cannot happen.

What's preventing the "everything and anything" happening? What agency is creating that?

We don't know what is creating that. By agency, do you mean a government "agency" or a privately owned "agency"? Still trying to smuggle in an argument?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 3:00 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:55 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:50 pm

The opposite of random, as I defined "random" to you, would be that anything and everything cannot happen.

What's preventing the "everything and anything" happening? What agency is creating that?

We don't know what is creating that. By agency, do you mean a government "agency" or a privately owned "agency"? Still trying to smuggle in an argument?

No, obviously not. In philosophy, the word "agency" simply means "force" or "active thing." It's a very general term, so I'm not pinning you down on what dynamic you can implicate.

So what is the dynamic, force or agent that is constraining evolution, in your theory?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 3:06 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 3:00 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 2:55 pm
What's preventing the "everything and anything" happening? What agency is creating that?

We don't know what is creating that. By agency, do you mean a government "agency" or a privately owned "agency"? Still trying to smuggle in an argument?

No, obviously not. In philosophy, the word "agency" simply means "force" or "active thing." It's a very general term, so I'm not pinning you down on what dynamic you can implicate.

So what is the dynamic, force or agent that is constraining evolution, in your theory?

Stop bullshitting IC. We all know what you are trying to do. You're trying to smuggle in an argument based on the word you choose to use. So for example, if I choose "governed," then you are going to equivocate and tell me that only sentient beings can "govern" something, and therefore I am saying that a sentient being is controlling evolution. It's like saying a plant must have a "manager" (in order to operate in an economy), therefore all plants (even ones growing in the soil) must have "managers".