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Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2026 8:38 pm
by Immanuel Can
phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 8:31 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 8:20 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 8:09 pm
That said, you seemed pretty harsh.
Do not marvel that Flash chooses to call the criterion of wisdom "spurious."
No, because there is no measure of "wisdom".
Only because wisdom is a character quality, not a pound of sugar. One often knows wisdom when one encounters it.
In these discussions, it really means voting for the same policies as 'me'.
I don't recall anybody saying anything like that. I think they just mean they would like some assurance that people who are given political power have some maturity, good judgment, good character and good intentions. And that seems quite reasonable. I don't see anywhere where anybody's said, "Disenfranchise the Democrats," for example.
The same goes for "far-sighted", "competent" and "seeking the good of the country", etc.
Well, anybody who doesn't understand what it means to make a decision that may not pay off immediately, but pays off big in the future, or doesn't understand the idea of putting the welfare of others ahead of his own probably shouldn't vote.
And maybe that's become democracy's Achilles heel: it has given too much power to those without the wisdom, farsightedness and love of their country.
But as Churchill and others have noted, "Democracy's the worst form of government, except for every other form of government."
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2026 8:40 pm
by Iwannaplato
phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 8:31 pm
No, because there is no measure of "wisdom".
There might be ways to measure it, over time, with a very complicated investigation. But the legislation and application of the law would be a complete nightmare. And obviously it couldn't be measured along value/party lines. Or even policy lines: is this a good policy? It would have to be more abstract. Like if they were going to create a new law affecting pedagogy in schools, what issues should be examined? See if the person can take into account stuff, regardless of their opinion on the law. Complete and total nightmare. And it would end up dismissing people who were less good verbally and at test taking but might have a very good sense of candidates and the direction things should move in.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2026 8:47 pm
by Iwannaplato
Maia wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 1:52 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 12:57 pm
You can join the UK military at 16 but you can't vote at 16.
I'm not sure that's relevant.
Imagine explaining it to the 16 year old soldier.
You can serve and die for the country but you cannot choose the leaders that may decide what criteria they use to send you to potential death. And if you sign on at 16 or 17, you are committed to serve until you are 22. I actually think that's more absurd than letting them vote at 16. That's a gut reaction. The media influence on how they might view larger policies seems less dangerous that media influencing how they view what it means for them as individuals to be in the army and in war.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2026 8:49 pm
by phyllo
In these discussions, it really means voting for the same policies as 'me'.
I don't recall anybody saying anything like that.
It's unsaid between the lines.
I don't see anywhere where anybody's said, "Disenfranchise the Democrats," for example.
If it's decided that democrats are "without the wisdom, farsightedness and love of their country" and those qualities are required of a voter, then they could be disenfranchised.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:09 pm
by Immanuel Can
phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 8:49 pm
In these discussions, it really means voting for the same policies as 'me'.
I don't recall anybody saying anything like that.
It's unsaid between the lines.
Then I think it wasn't said at all, you'll find.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:13 pm
by phyllo
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:09 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 8:49 pm
I don't recall anybody saying anything like that.
It's unsaid between the lines.
Then I think it wasn't said at all, you'll find.
I'm aware of the current political climate.
I'm aware of what has been said.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:19 pm
by Immanuel Can
phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:13 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:09 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 8:49 pm
It's unsaid between the lines.
Then I think it wasn't said at all, you'll find.
I'm aware of the current political climate.
I'm aware of what has been said.
Well, it wasn't that. So I don't know how you divined it.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:26 pm
by phyllo
I will give you the AI summary:
Donald Trump has frequently used harsh, highly charged language to describe Democrats, often focusing on themes of "hatred," "evil," and "destruction" of the country. His rhetoric often positions the Democratic party as an existential threat to the United States.
Key Rhetorical Themes and Quotes
"The Enemy from Within" (2024–2025): Trump has repeatedly described Democrats as "the enemy from within," suggesting they are more dangerous to the U.S. than foreign adversaries like Russia or China.
"Party of Hate, Evil, and Satan" (2025): In October 2025, Trump shared a meme on Truth Social labeling the Democratic Party as "The Party of Hate, Evil, and Satan".
Expressions of "Hatred" (2025): In July 2025, during remarks in Iowa, Trump stated, "They hate Trump. But I hate them, too. I really do. I hate them. I cannot stand them, because I really believe they hate our country".
"Seditious" and "Death Penalty" (Nov 2025): Trump accused specific Democratic lawmakers of "seditious behavior" and suggested it was "punishable by death" after they advised military service members to disregard unlawful orders.
"Unhinged" and "Wacko" (2018–2020): During his presidency, he often described Democrats as "unhinged," "crazy," and a "left-wing mob".
"Destroying the Country": Trump has often argued that Democrats want to "reverse our amazing progress, and plunge our country into gridlock, frankly into poverty, ultimately into chaos".
"Scum" and "Vermin" (2024): He has used terms like "scum," "vermin," and "animals" to describe political opponents.
It's only a hop, skip and jump from there to "you are required to love your country in order to vote" and "democrats don't love their country so they can't vote"
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:38 pm
by Immanuel Can
phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:26 pm
I will give you the AI summary:
Of what was said in this forum? Hardly.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:56 pm
by Iwannaplato
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:38 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:26 pm
I will give you the AI summary:
Of what was said in this forum? Hardly.
So, you would condemn such talk here, but do you condemn it in Trump?
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2026 10:15 pm
by Immanuel Can
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:56 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:38 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:26 pm
I will give you the AI summary:
Of what was said in this forum? Hardly.
So, you would condemn such talk here, but do you condemn it in Trump?
You made a list of stuff that has nothing to do with me. I'm not God, so I don't condemn anybody. And I'm not American, so I don't even have so much as a vote to offer any American president.
The point was simple: you are attributing things to "between the lines" interpretations of what you think other people might have said, if they'd been willing actually to say it. I think we owe it to them to go with what they say, not what we might read "between the lines" with our imaginations.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2026 10:59 pm
by phyllo
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 10:15 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:56 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:38 pm
Of what was said in this forum? Hardly.
So, you would condemn such talk here, but do you condemn it in Trump?
You made a list of stuff that has nothing to do with me. I'm not God, so I don't condemn anybody. And I'm not American, so I don't even have so much as a vote to offer any American president.
The point was simple: you are attributing things to "between the lines" interpretations of what you think other people might have said, if they'd been willing actually to say it. I think we owe it to them to go with what they say, not what we might read "between the lines" with our imaginations.
You're being educated on how making "love of country" a requirement for voting can be used to suppress certain groups.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2026 11:04 pm
by Immanuel Can
phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 10:59 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 10:15 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:56 pm
So, you would condemn such talk here, but do you condemn it in Trump?
You made a list of stuff that has nothing to do with me. I'm not God, so I don't condemn anybody. And I'm not American, so I don't even have so much as a vote to offer any American president.
The point was simple: you are attributing things to "between the lines" interpretations of what you think other people might have said, if they'd been willing actually to say it. I think we owe it to them to go with what they say, not what we might read "between the lines" with our imaginations.
You're being educated on how making "love of country" a requirement for voting can be used to suppress certain groups.
Who is this insidious group who's going to do this nefarious thing? And which helpless waifs are they out to "suppress"? Please "educate" me more.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2026 11:11 pm
by phyllo
Please "educate" me more.
You asked for it, you got it.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2026 12:53 am
by Immanuel Can
phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 11:11 pm
Please "educate" me more.
You asked for it, you got it.
Well? Where is it? Going to answer my questions?
Didn't think so.