For the discussion of all things philosophical.
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Get bent, lady.
Person or meat. Free will or machine. Morally substantive or morally vacant.
The only evidence I am aware of is the evidence that suggests we just don't know.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 6:33 pmNot with absolute certainty, no. But certainly with strong evidence.Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 6:14 pmMaybe, maybe not, but I'm not really pointing to any one thing, I'm just saying the question of free will is one that we just can't answer with any certainty.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 6:05 pm
Objecting? No. Just pointing out the irrelevance of the observation. Some folks (maybe not you) think appealing to “randomness” might change something. But as you can see, it really doesn’t. If anything, it merely makes the Determinism problem worse.
The question of free will might make an interesting philosophical discussion, but I can't see any other use for it. As you say, we all live our lives as though we have it.For one thing, every human being in this history of the world has found that he/she has had to live as if choice changes things.
The universe, and all human activity within it, could be totally deterministic, and our sense that we have free will could be an illusion. How can we ever know? If a "determinist" is someone who lives his life on that basis, I can't quite see how he does it, and even less why he does it.But if Determinism were true, that would be a totally contrary-to-reality belief. So it would be up to the Determinist to explain why, although Determinism is supposed to be a description of hard-nosed reality, in reality, that same belief never works.
Okbahman wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:09 pmExperiences are two types, those that cannot be conveyed like the experience of immortality, or those that can be conveyed like thoughts such as my argument about free will.
We are much more than meat, henry, but only to ourselves, not to the universe. But what difference does God or the soul make, either way?
If there’s no middle ground. There’s no Orhenry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:20 pm
Person ormeat. Free will ormachine. Morally substantive or morally vacant.
There's no middie ground. And why would you want one? Aren't you comfortable as meat?
You say: no God, no soul, no morality...you are meat.
Lolhenry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:49 pmBy Crom's danglies, it's like talkin' at age.
Get. Bent. Feeb.
The evidence of your own experience is all against Determinism. But perhaps you don’t realize that; and ironically, the reason you don’t realize it is that you have a mind, and make choices about what you will believe.Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:27 pmThe only evidence I am aware of is the evidence that suggests we just don't know.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 6:33 pmNot with absolute certainty, no. But certainly with strong evidence.
Right. And that is evidence. We can choose to disregard our experience, but that choice itself is further evidence of the same.The question of free will might make an interesting philosophical discussion, but I can't see any other use for it. As you say, we all live our lives as though we have it.For one thing, every human being in this history of the world has found that he/she has had to live as if choice changes things.
Yes, that’s what I’m saying. But if that’s how it is, it would be up to the Determinist to explain how it can work that way. Otherwise, our belief and our common experience of being persons, making choices, having will, using reason, doing science, and so on would be utterly inexplicable.The universe, and all human activity within it, could be totally deterministic, and our sense that we have free will could be an illusion.But if Determinism were true, that would be a totally contrary-to-reality belief. So it would be up to the Determinist to explain why, although Determinism is supposed to be a description of hard-nosed reality, in reality, that same belief never works.
The “why” would be easy: he only does things “because” prior physical forces make him do them. But how does he come to have a belief that bears no resemblance to reality, and yet is the only functional way for him to live? That would require some very precise explaining, which I have never seen Determinists to be able to manage. Instead, they just usually say, “Well, we don’t know such things now, but I assure you that when we discover all the facts that we now lack, that’s how it will turn out to have been.” In other words, they think they’re prophets of some kind, and can tell us what we are bound to learn in the future.How can we ever know? If a "determinist" is someone who lives his life on that basis, I can't quite see how he does it, and even less why he does it.
It seems to me that we can't know for sure if we have free will, or to what extent we might have it if we do, so I am going to do something radical, and possibly outrageous. I've decided not to have an opinion on the matter.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 9:09 pmThe evidence of your own experience is all against Determinism. But perhaps you don’t realize that; and ironically, the reason you don’t realize it is that you have a mind, and make choices about what you will believe.Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:27 pmThe only evidence I am aware of is the evidence that suggests we just don't know.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 6:33 pm
Not with absolute certainty, no. But certainly with strong evidence.
Right. And that is evidence. We can choose to disregard our experience, but that choice itself is further evidence of the same.The question of free will might make an interesting philosophical discussion, but I can't see any other use for it. As you say, we all live our lives as though we have it.For one thing, every human being in this history of the world has found that he/she has had to live as if choice changes things.
Yes, that’s what I’m saying. But if that’s how it is, it would be up to the Determinist to explain how it can work that way. Otherwise, our belief and our common experience of being persons, making choices, having will, using reason, doing science, and so on would be utterly inexplicable.The universe, and all human activity within it, could be totally deterministic, and our sense that we have free will could be an illusion.But if Determinism were true, that would be a totally contrary-to-reality belief. So it would be up to the Determinist to explain why, although Determinism is supposed to be a description of hard-nosed reality, in reality, that same belief never works.The “why” would be easy: he only does things “because” prior physical forces make him do them. But how does he come to have a belief that bears no resemblance to reality, and yet is the only functional way for him to live? That would require some very precise explaining, which I have never seen Determinists to be able to manage. Instead, they just usually say, “Well, we don’t know such things now, but I assure you that when we discover all the facts that we now lack, that’s how it will turn out to have been.” In other words, they think they’re prophets of some kind, and can tell us what we are bound to learn in the future.How can we ever know? If a "determinist" is someone who lives his life on that basis, I can't quite see how he does it, and even less why he does it.
By the way, have you ever tried discussing the actual subject topic, rather than just beating on the person.
No it’s not.henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 10:13 pm
That's askin'' what difference does it make if I'm alive or dead?
