Free Will

[henry quirk]

Get bent, lady.

-----

There obviously is a middle ground.

Person or meat. Free will or machine. Morally substantive or morally vacant.

There's no middie ground. And why would you want one? Aren't you comfortable as meat?

You say: no God, no soul, no morality...you are meat.

[Harbal]

Objecting? No. Just pointing out the irrelevance of the observation. Some folks (maybe not you) think appealing to “randomness” might change something. But as you can see, it really doesn’t. If anything, it merely makes the Determinism problem worse.

Maybe, maybe not, but I'm not really pointing to any one thing, I'm just saying the question of free will is one that we just can't answer with any certainty.

Not with absolute certainty, no. But certainly with strong evidence.

The only evidence I am aware of is the evidence that suggests we just don't know.

For one thing, every human being in this history of the world has found that he/she has had to live as if choice changes things.

The question of free will might make an interesting philosophical discussion, but I can't see any other use for it. As you say, we all live our lives as though we have it.

But if Determinism were true, that would be a totally contrary-to-reality belief. So it would be up to the Determinist to explain why, although Determinism is supposed to be a description of hard-nosed reality, in reality, that same belief never works.

The universe, and all human activity within it, could be totally deterministic, and our sense that we have free will could be an illusion. How can we ever know? If a "determinist" is someone who lives his life on that basis, I can't quite see how he does it, and even less why he does it.

[Fairy]

What this knowing is? It is a thought that is true.

Yes, knowing is a thought that is true, a thought that is a concept known by knowing.

You are this knowing, this immortal knowing.

But can this immortal knowing translate into any form of experience and knowledge about what this immortal knowing is.

Experiences are two types, those that cannot be conveyed like the experience of immortality, or those that can be conveyed like thoughts such as my argument about free will.

Ok

[Harbal]

You say: no God, no soul, no morality...you are meat.

We are much more than meat, henry, but only to ourselves, not to the universe. But what difference does God or the soul make, either way?

[Fairy]

Person ormeat. Free will ormachine. Morally substantive or morally vacant.

There's no middie ground. And why would you want one? Aren't you comfortable as meat?

You say: no God, no soul, no morality...you are meat.

If there’s no middle ground. There’s no Or

[henry quirk]

By Crom's danglies, it's like talkin' at age.

Get. Bent. Feeb.

[Fairy]

By Crom's danglies, it's like talkin' at age.

Get. Bent. Feeb.

Lol

You like to talk a lot don’t you, never really knowing who you are talking to. Lol

[henry quirk]

LOL

Lol

The resemblance is striking.

One last time: get bent you dumb ass maniac.

[Immanuel Can]

Maybe, maybe not, but I'm not really pointing to any one thing, I'm just saying the question of free will is one that we just can't answer with any certainty.

Not with absolute certainty, no. But certainly with strong evidence.

The only evidence I am aware of is the evidence that suggests we just don't know.

The evidence of your own experience is all against Determinism. But perhaps you don’t realize that; and ironically, the reason you don’t realize it is that you have a mind, and make choices about what you will believe.

For one thing, every human being in this history of the world has found that he/she has had to live as if choice changes things.

The question of free will might make an interesting philosophical discussion, but I can't see any other use for it. As you say, we all live our lives as though we have it.

Right. And that is evidence. We can choose to disregard our experience, but that choice itself is further evidence of the same.

But if Determinism were true, that would be a totally contrary-to-reality belief. So it would be up to the Determinist to explain why, although Determinism is supposed to be a description of hard-nosed reality, in reality, that same belief never works.

The universe, and all human activity within it, could be totally deterministic, and our sense that we have free will could be an illusion.

Yes, that’s what I’m saying. But if that’s how it is, it would be up to the Determinist to explain how it can work that way. Otherwise, our belief and our common experience of being persons, making choices, having will, using reason, doing science, and so on would be utterly inexplicable.

How can we ever know? If a "determinist" is someone who lives his life on that basis, I can't quite see how he does it, and even less why he does it.

The “why” would be easy: he only does things “because” prior physical forces make him do them. But how does he come to have a belief that bears no resemblance to reality, and yet is the only functional way for him to live? That would require some very precise explaining, which I have never seen Determinists to be able to manage. Instead, they just usually say, “Well, we don’t know such things now, but I assure you that when we discover all the facts that we now lack, that’s how it will turn out to have been.” In other words, they think they’re prophets of some kind, and can tell us what we are bound to learn in the future.

[Fairy]

LOL

Lol

The resemblance is striking.

One last time: get bent you dumb ass maniac.

So which one of us is this reactive unkind strike of yours aimed at.

Do you even know… hahaha

[Harbal]

Not with absolute certainty, no. But certainly with strong evidence.

The only evidence I am aware of is the evidence that suggests we just don't know.

The evidence of your own experience is all against Determinism. But perhaps you don’t realize that; and ironically, the reason you don’t realize it is that you have a mind, and make choices about what you will believe.

For one thing, every human being in this history of the world has found that he/she has had to live as if choice changes things.

The question of free will might make an interesting philosophical discussion, but I can't see any other use for it. As you say, we all live our lives as though we have it.

Right. And that is evidence. We can choose to disregard our experience, but that choice itself is further evidence of the same.

But if Determinism were true, that would be a totally contrary-to-reality belief. So it would be up to the Determinist to explain why, although Determinism is supposed to be a description of hard-nosed reality, in reality, that same belief never works.

The universe, and all human activity within it, could be totally deterministic, and our sense that we have free will could be an illusion.

Yes, that’s what I’m saying. But if that’s how it is, it would be up to the Determinist to explain how it can work that way. Otherwise, our belief and our common experience of being persons, making choices, having will, using reason, doing science, and so on would be utterly inexplicable.

How can we ever know? If a "determinist" is someone who lives his life on that basis, I can't quite see how he does it, and even less why he does it.

The “why” would be easy: he only does things “because” prior physical forces make him do them. But how does he come to have a belief that bears no resemblance to reality, and yet is the only functional way for him to live? That would require some very precise explaining, which I have never seen Determinists to be able to manage. Instead, they just usually say, “Well, we don’t know such things now, but I assure you that when we discover all the facts that we now lack, that’s how it will turn out to have been.” In other words, they think they’re prophets of some kind, and can tell us what we are bound to learn in the future.

It seems to me that we can't know for sure if we have free will, or to what extent we might have it if we do, so I am going to do something radical, and possibly outrageous. I've decided not to have an opinion on the matter.

[Fairy]

LOL

Lol

The resemblance is striking.

One last time: get bent you dumb ass maniac.

By the way, have you ever tried discussing the actual subject topic, rather than just beating on the person.
But if you’d rather just use me as a punching bag for your anger issues due to your lack of understanding of the topic, then go ahead lady basher, show me your true character. Let your light shine bright.

[henry quirk]

We are much more than meat

How so?

what difference does God or the soul make, either way?

That's askin'' what difference does it make if I'm alive or dead?

[Fairy]

That's askin'' what difference does it make if I'm alive or dead?

No it’s not.

There’s no difference, because life and death are the same immortal phenomena, they just differ in appearance that’s all.

[henry quirk]

I'd be happy to discuss the topic.

Ain't listenin' to none of your hippy hokum, though, none of this life and death are the same immortal phenomena malarky.

Person, just meat: what is man?