Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:02 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 8:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 8:55 pm
It's a good thing the choice was possible...the temptation itself was not a good thing. No choice would mean we had no free will.

So temptation is not good since it can lead to evil? Doesn't it mean that God created a sinful situation?

You're confusing the evil of making a bad choice with the good of having a choice.

No, I am not confused about that. My point is that God put them in a situation where they could choose evil. That is the very meaning of creating a sinful situation. Of course, they could resist it. How long they could resist the temptation? Who knows. They were trapped in that situation. On top of that, there was the Serpent who fooled Eve by saying that you look like God if you eat the fruit and God never punish you!

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:08 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:02 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 8:58 pm So temptation is not good since it can lead to evil? Doesn't it mean that God created a sinful situation?

You're confusing the evil of making a bad choice with the good of having a choice.

No, I am not confused about that. My point is that God put them in a situation where they could choose evil. That is the very meaning of creating a sinful situation.

Situations aren't "sinful." In a "situation," you have different choices. It's the choices you make that are either good or evil. It's not the situation itself.

You'll find it better to discuss what I DO say, rather than what you try to make me say. I don't feel any particular need to defend a description you've made up...but I'm content to explain what I HAVE said, not what I have not said.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:14 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:08 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:02 pm
You're confusing the evil of making a bad choice with the good of having a choice.

No, I am not confused about that. My point is that God put them in a situation where they could choose evil. That is the very meaning of creating a sinful situation.

Situations aren't "sinful." In a "situation," you have different choices. It's the choices you make that are either good or evil. It's not the situation itself.

That was of course a sinful situation. They could sin by choosing evil.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:16 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:14 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:08 pm
No, I am not confused about that. My point is that God put them in a situation where they could choose evil. That is the very meaning of creating a sinful situation.

Situations aren't "sinful." In a "situation," you have different choices. It's the choices you make that are either good or evil. It's not the situation itself.

That was of course a sinful situation. They could sin by choosing evil.

That is a sinful choice. It's not a sinful situation: there's nothing sinful about the fact of having a choice. Choice itself is a great good. But every choice has two sides: the good and the bad choice.

Put it this way:

Your brother comes home, puts his wallet on the table, and goes to another room.

Has he created "a sinful situation"?

You have the choice to take his money or leave it. Has he sinned? Is he guilty?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:19 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:16 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:14 pm
Situations aren't "sinful." In a "situation," you have different choices. It's the choices you make that are either good or evil. It's not the situation itself.

That was of course a sinful situation. They could sin by choosing evil.

That is a sinful choice. It's not a sinful situation: there's nothing sinful about the fact of having a choice. Choice itself is a great good. But every choice has two sides: the good and the bad choice.

I don't understand why you cannot see the obvious. Think of a situation in which there was not a tree of good and evil. They were still free to choose but only good was available to them. That is the definition of a good situation. But God has its plan knowing that they fail. He created the tree, gave Adam and Eve access to it on top of that allowed the Serpent to fool Eve...

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:27 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:19 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:16 pm
That was of course a sinful situation. They could sin by choosing evil.

That is a sinful choice. It's not a sinful situation: there's nothing sinful about the fact of having a choice. Choice itself is a great good. But every choice has two sides: the good and the bad choice.

I don't understand why you cannot see the obvious.

I'll repeat.

Put it this way:

Your brother comes home, puts his wallet on the table, and goes to another room.

Has he created "a sinful situation"?

You have the choice to take his money or leave it. Has he sinned? Is he guilty?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:19 pm You have the choice to take his money or leave it. Has he sinned? Is he guilty?

It is not clear to me now how god differs from the devil. The devil also tempts a person, puts him in front of a choice, but does not force him to accept it, the choice is still up to the person.

nemos wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:30 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:19 pm You have the choice to take his money or leave it. Has he sinned? Is he guilty?

It is not clear to me now how god differs from the devil. The devil also tempts a person, puts him in front of a choice, but does not force him to accept it, the choice is still up to the person.

"No one is to say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it has run its course, brings forth death." (James 1:13-15)

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:28 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:27 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:19 pm
That is a sinful choice. It's not a sinful situation: there's nothing sinful about the fact of having a choice. Choice itself is a great good. But every choice has two sides: the good and the bad choice.

I don't understand why you cannot see the obvious.

I'll repeat.

Put it this way:

Your brother comes home, puts his wallet on the table, and goes to another room.

Has he created "a sinful situation"?

You have the choice to take his money or leave it. Has he sinned? Is he guilty?

If he knew that I had the temptation to take his money on top of that set a Serpent free to tell me that it is alright if I steal the money then he has sinned.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:33 pm No one is to say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; ...(James 1:13-15)

Sorry, sorry, I understand - it's not good to say that.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:28 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:27 pm
I don't understand why you cannot see the obvious.

I'll repeat.

Put it this way:

Your brother comes home, puts his wallet on the table, and goes to another room.

Has he created "a sinful situation"?

You have the choice to take his money or leave it. Has he sinned? Is he guilty?

If he knew that I had the temptation to take his money...

He knows. He's trusting you to do the right thing, but taking the chance you won't do the right thing, because your relationship of trust with him is more important. Is he evil?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:54 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:28 pm I'll repeat.

Put it this way:

Your brother comes home, puts his wallet on the table, and goes to another room.

Has he created "a sinful situation"?

You have the choice to take his money or leave it. Has he sinned? Is he guilty?

If he knew that I had the temptation to take his money...

He knows. He's trusting you to do the right thing, but taking the chance you won't do the right thing, because your relationship of trust with him is more important. Is he evil?

What do you mean that he is trusting me? God knew in advance that Adam and Eve would fail by putting them in that situation. And yes, what God did was evil.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:27 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:19 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:16 pm
That was of course a sinful situation. They could sin by choosing evil.

That is a sinful choice. It's not a sinful situation: there's nothing sinful about the fact of having a choice. Choice itself is a great good. But every choice has two sides: the good and the bad choice.

I don't understand why you cannot see the obvious. Think of a situation in which there was not a tree of good and evil. They were still free to choose but only good was available to them. That is the definition of a good situation. But God has its plan knowing that they fail. He created the tree, gave Adam and Eve access to it on top of that allowed the Serpent to fool Eve...

If God has knowledge of the future, then placing the tree there is extremely stupid of God.

Unless God intended them to eat from the tree, as some interpret the story.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:57 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:54 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:40 pm
If he knew that I had the temptation to take his money...

He knows. He's trusting you to do the right thing, but taking the chance you won't do the right thing, because your relationship of trust with him is more important. Is he evil?

What do you mean that he is trusting me?

He has been good to you. You have everything you need. You don't need his money. There's every reason he should be able to trust you with such a choice. And his allowing of you the freedom to do the right thing and the wrong thing bespeaks the honesty of his intention toward you.

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:59 pm If God has knowledge of the future, then placing the tree there is extremely stupid of God.

Not "stupid." It's analytically necessary.

For if there is not one choice in the universe -- just one, at a minimum -- that man could make for himself, and choose either the right or the wrong of his own volition, then it isn't clear that there would have been any sense in which he was a being with a will of his own. And beings with no will cannot be in a free-will relationship.