Philosophy Now Forum

That is not a point I see value in debating. Neither of us — no one of us — can say what will happen next, where it leads or how it will end. I suggest that it was a brilliant military operation. I recognize that goes against a conventional assessment.

Oh, we can't say but we can babble endlessly about Zionism, Jewry, Judaism and Jews. Got it.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:14 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:36 pm It would also be a barbarous argument, seeing as Hamas tore open pregnant women and cut up their babies in front of their eyes, and brutalized and kidnapped old people and children, and raped young women to death and then sat on their bodies and laughed.

I would have to see the visual evidence.

Here's just one example. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/ ... -fighters/

I can't imagine how you haven't seen any of the footage of things like Hamas gunmen throwing grenades into bomb shelters, or the charred remains being picked up after they went through southern Israel. I have. One would have to be trying very hard to avoid the evidence, in order to avoid seeing it, I think.

But hey, even independent corroboration of the Holocaust has never been enough to convince all doubters of its existence, so I guess one can always keep denying, if one is desperate to do so.

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:17 pm Oh, we can't say but we can babble endlessly about Zionism, Jewry, Judaism and Jews Got it.

Well what do you propose?

Zionism, Jewry, Judaism and Jews — these are the crux of the issue. Beyond all doubt.

Explain your perspective.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:31 pm I can't imagine how you haven't seen any of the footage of things like Hamas gunmen throwing grenades into bomb shelters, or the charred remains being picked up after they went through southern Israel.

I have seen violent attacks, killings and much else. What I have not seen are women raped to death. Forty murdered babies. Babies hacked out of women’s bellies. Babies roasted in ovens. Etc.

Those were your general claims.

Most of the music festival deaths were caused by rockets from Apache helicopters I have read. Same with the burned up homes. 1/3 of Israeli dead in the attack here military. And many of the total dead were actually Hamas fighters.

Or so I have read. In wartime one cannot simply believe what one is told.

You see through the overheated eyes of religious zealotry, Manny. There are alternatives.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:42 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:31 pm I can't imagine how you haven't seen any of the footage of things like Hamas gunmen throwing grenades into bomb shelters, or the charred remains being picked up after they went through southern Israel.

What I have not seen are women raped to death.

No "live action" films, you mean? Maybe the perpetrators had other things to do when they were doing that. But you certainly see the aftermath. When you're sitting on a young woman's corpse and cheering, one can figure out it's not because they just threw her a birthday party.

But there are no limits to denialism, I realize.

Just be mindful of this: when they finish with their obvious opponents, they always come for the compromisers next. History teaches us that you won't win any favours by selling out your own people. They'll rip you apart when they're done with the courageous ones. And we also know that when they come for the Jews, they'll come for the Christians, too.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:55 pm
But there are no limits to denialism, I realize.

I think this is an interesting example of how important the "who should I trust?" side of epistemology is. Alexis has made a choice. I'm not sure what rational means one has available to convince him he made the wrong one.

I don't agree with his choice, but at the same time I'm not in a position to comfortably say he's definitely wrong. I think he's probably wrong. I wouldn't be great at demonstrating why.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:55 pm No "live action" films, you mean? Maybe the perpetrators had other things to do when they were doing that. But you certainly see the aftermath. When you're sitting on a young woman's corpse and cheering, one can figure out it's not because they just threw her a birthday party.

Yes, live action films. In order to validate the claims.

The aftermath? You’ve not done your research. The burned up cars and charred festival goers: Apache attack helicopters. Same with most of the kibbutz homes: Apache rockets.

I would not be surprised if there were visual evidence of a Hamas man standing on a corpse though. Such things happen in brutal wars. Israelis do such things often. There has been much documented in video over the years .

This sort of thing too.

You refer to reports like this. Not impossible. But I would have to see the visual evidence.

It is anecdotal in these presentations. And purveyed by military officials. Suspect in my view.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:01 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:55 pm But there are no limits to denialism, I realize.

I think this is an interesting example of how important the "who should I trust?" side of epistemology is. Alexis has made a choice. I'm not sure what rational means one has available to convince him he made the wrong one.

I find the same with the Holocaust.

When I was in undergrad, I spent a summer working for a professor studying the camps. He had a ton of raw data, including everything from unpublished pictures to survivor interviews on tape. And he wasn't Jewish, and not interested in the Jewish side, but the medical side of things. So I got to see a ton of stuff, and hear a ton of stuff, that most people will never hear or never see. And I have no lingering doubts about the Holocaust having happened. But I still see people who go about denying it, or calling it a "Jewish plot."

Don't trust my authority, or Alexis's. But personally, I don't have to trust anybody's. I've seen the evidence for myself.

What are we to make of that? Only that history...even recent history...is up for grabs when the naysayers get ahold of it. And Alexis is a naysayer.

Hamas is, somehow, doing a remarkably good job at propaganda. I wonder how they managed that. Imagine having the ability to go to a village, rape and murder and burn alive, and then have people around the world saying you didn't do that...

It's surreal, and that seems to be the reality.

accelafine wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:17 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:07 am It's a war of words.
Plenty to go round. Select the delusion you want. But it does not change the fact that when an occuplying force has bulldozers as part of its arsenal the aim is genocide.

fake news.jpg

What the fuck is wrong with you? You believe every bit of bullshit that comes from Hamas,

This is not from Hamas but from Israel.
Wake the fuck up bitch

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:22 pm Hamas is, somehow, doing a remarkably good job at propaganda. I wonder how they managed that. Imagine having the ability to go to a village, rape and murder and burn alive, and then have people around the world saying you didn't do that...

It's surreal, and that seems to be the reality.

It's very simple, actually, but nobody would believe me if I explained it. That's why all the more complicated explanations seem strained and implausible. From any natural perspective, it just shouldn't be happening, and wouldn't be happening that way.

If, for example, the Americans rose up and kidnapped, raped and slaughtered the Canadians, all the while recording their own crimes, the world would see the thing clearly. And if the Canadians fought back to make the Americans stop, the world would understand completely...and maybe even hope that the Americans would take a well-deserved beating to keep them in line and make them think twice about killing the Mexicans. Substitute any other ethnicities in, and the same would apply.

But Jews are not just anybody. And the rules are different for Jews. Nothing makes that point more clear than the fact that Israel has had 45 UN resolutions condemning it, and regimes like Iraq, Iran, Syria, Yemen, Palestine and China have few or none. Are we actually to believe that Israel is more evil than Syria? Or than China? Or are we realizing that the scales of international arbitration are grossly tilted?

If, for example, the Americans rose up and kidnapped, raped and slaughtered the Canadians, all the while recording their own crimes, the world would see the thing clearly. And if the Canadians fought back to make the Americans stop, the world would understand completely...and maybe even hope that the Americans would take a well-deserved beating to keep them in line and make them think twice about killing the Mexicans. Substitute any other ethnicities in, and the same would apply.

If Americans committed atrocities, then Canadians are allowed to commit atrocities in return?

How many Americans are Canadians allowed to kill in retaliation or revenge?

No limits?

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:42 pmIf Americans committed atrocities, then Canadians are allowed to commit atrocities in return?

How many Americans are Canadians allowed to kill in retaliation or revenge?

No limits?

I don't speak for everyone else, but "revenge" is certainly an unacceptable reason for combat to me. Neutralising active threats, however, is an acceptable reason.

It's very disconcerting that there seem to be some powerful voices inside Israel that seem to be arguing for revenge, and not just ensuring safety.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:01 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:55 pm But there are no limits to denialism, I realize.

I think this is an interesting example of how important the "who should I trust?" side of epistemology is. Alexis has made a choice. I'm not sure what rational means one has available to convince him he made the wrong one.

I don't agree with his choice, but at the same time I'm not in a position to comfortably say he's definitely wrong. I think he's probably wrong. I wouldn't be great at demonstrating why.

Ok. But you could make plain what you believe I am wrong about.

And what is the choice you believe I have made?