Moral Compass

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Moral Compass

Post by Immanuel Can »

Janoah wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2023 10:26 pm The formulated laws of nature are always only limited and approximate models, but they reflect, to some extent, the really existing regularity of nature, which cannot be comprehended absolutely, but which really exists.
That doesn't really help us, as an observation.

"Regularity." You mean, "scientific laws"? That's what Uninformitarians would understand.

But Uniformitarianism has a serious problem. These "regularities" only describe what regularly seems to happen, so long as nothing else intervenes. For example, it is ordinarily or "regularly" the case that objects pushed off a table fall to the ground. Except in space. Or except when a hand reaches out and catches the object. Or when it falls on an elastic surface and rebounds upward. Or when the object is a helium balloon. Or when the object is tied to a string...A host of possible exceptions always exist to every such rule or "regularity."

That's why we can only say that scientific laws only apply all else being equal. But often, all else is not equal.

Nowhere is this more apparent than in something like, say, the Red Sea crossing. The "regularity," the usual scientific principle governing hydrodynamics is that water does not stand up in walls. However, the claim made in Torah is that this happened. And because it happened, it was designated a "miracle."

A "miracle," you see, is only a term that can be used by people who already know and acknowledge the scientific "regularties," as you call them. It is only because Moses knows the basics of hydrodynamics that he is able to recognize that the rescue at the Red Sea is not a mere natural phenomenon, but something quite extraordinary...so extraordinary, in fact, that short of the hand of YHWH, no such thing could ever be possible. So Moses calls it a "miracle," because it is an interruption the the scientific regularities that Moses knows usually obtain to water. Nothing short of an act of God could produce an event so contrary to expected scientific "regularity."

So that gives us a choice: we can either say Moses lied, or that what he told the truth about really qualifies as a genuine miracle. For both we and Moses know that water does not arbitrarily stand up in walls. However, it was never any promise from HaShem that He would never intervene in the scientific "regularities" He Himself had placed into the world.

In other words, we have no justification at all to assume that Uninformitarianism puts and obligation on HaShem never to intervene on behalf of His people. We can't say, based on our belief in Uniformitarianism, that Moses lied. So I guess it puts a burden on us to decide how seriously we are willing to regard the account given in Torah. But Uninformitarianism will not resolve that for us.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Moral Compass

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Janoah wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2023 10:19 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2023 4:56 am
If one is highly moral or ethical, one will be spontaneously moral in one's actions without the involvement of conscience.
Conscience is what distinguishes man from animal.
An animal can be trained in manners that are considered “moral”, a dog can be trained not to bite, and a parrot can be trained to say “thank you” and “please”, but this will not make the animal moral, neither high nor low.
As they say, a dog is a man's friend, but it's bad when a man is a dog.
There are loads of variables that distinguish man from animal.
Conscience is one such variable but it does not mean that conscience is exclusively and 'absolutely' related to morality-proper.

See:
Conscience Can Trigger Vile Actions
viewtopic.php?t=41184
Gary Childress
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Re: Moral Compass

Post by Gary Childress »

Janoah wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2023 10:34 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2023 11:22 am
Janoah wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2023 1:39 am

Come on, Gary, let’s not engage in demagoguery in this topic, it is extremely harmful to Your health. All.
Then what is the solution to all that is happening right now?
The path to peace, harmony and ecological survival is to find consensus on a true moral compass.

By the way, Ayatollah Khomeini wrote a letter to Gorbachev urging him to turn to philosophy.

What kind of moral compass are Western leaders talking about?
I see that they mainly preach, impose, and worship mainly democracy and liberalism.
But even the ancient Greeks, who coined the term “democracy,” came to the conclusion that democracy fundamentally pursues not truth, but populism, and "a demagogue" is a democratic leader, translated from Greek.
Is it correct to say that you believe democracy is not as benevolent as having a "benevolent" supreme leader? So for example, Putin, Jinping, Un, and Khomeini are not tyrants and perhaps the West has it all backward, that we are the ones who are causing the trouble with our rabble rousing democracy, and the less democratic governments are putting up with us? If so, then I take it you are not an advocate of liberalism?
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Janoah
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Re: Moral Compass

Post by Janoah »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 2:02 am
Janoah wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2023 10:19 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2023 4:56 am
If one is highly moral or ethical, one will be spontaneously moral in one's actions without the involvement of conscience.
Conscience is what distinguishes man from animal.
An animal can be trained in manners that are considered “moral”, a dog can be trained not to bite, and a parrot can be trained to say “thank you” and “please”, but this will not make the animal moral, neither high nor low.
As they say, a dog is a man's friend, but it's bad when a man is a dog.
There are loads of variables that distinguish man from animal.
Conscience is one such variable but it does not mean that conscience is exclusively and 'absolutely' related to morality-proper.

See:
Conscience Can Trigger Vile Actions
viewtopic.php?t=41184

But if you don’t follow your conscience, then what should you follow?

If people have taken following their conscience as a principle, then they will be able to find a peaceful consensus on controversial issues.
Philosophy will help them with this.

I answered there in your topic.
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Janoah
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Re: Moral Compass

Post by Janoah »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 12:06 am a "miracle," because it is an interruption the the scientific regularities
It is clear that you believe in a transgression of the natural order, and therefore scientific proof is powerless here.
A related question here is psychological: what makes a person believe in absurdities that he has not seen?

I have already told you in sufficient detail about the explanation of miracles in the Tanakh by allegory.
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Janoah
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Re: Moral Compass

Post by Janoah »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 4:58 am

Is it correct to say that you believe democracy is not as benevolent as having a "benevolent" supreme leader?
Let's say, for example, the current president of Egypt, who came to power as a result of a military coup, and wins a sham presidential election, is preferable to the previous president, who was democratically elected, but was a representative of "Muslim Brotherhood".

Plato called tyranny the worst type of government, but he also called democracy a bad type of government.
But our theme here is not a form of government, but a moral compass.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Moral Compass

Post by Immanuel Can »

Janoah wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 7:54 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 12:06 am a "miracle," because it is an interruption the the scientific regularities
It is clear that you believe in a transgression of the natural order,
A miracle is not a transgression. You've mistaken the idea of a "natural law" for the idea of a legislative necessity. What we mean by "natural laws," when scientists refer to them is only "the way things usually seem to operate." As I said, all such laws are "all-else-being-equal," not absolute. And they're certainly not binding upon God, one would have to recognize.

And if the Giver of those regular phenomena decides to intervene, as Torah says YHWH has done on various occasions, who is to tell Him "NO"? :shock:
I have already told you in sufficient detail about the explanation of miracles in the Tanakh by allegory.
Yes, it is possible for you to explain them away in precisely that way: as if they were all merely "allegories" -- though you will find yourself hard pressed to explain how an "allegory" delivered Israel from Egypt, or blessed Abraham, or destroyed Jericho or Sodom, or raised a man from the dead. But that won't stop the determined "allegorizer": he'll just say, "Well, we don't know that now, but one day maybe we'll figure out the allegory to that one, too."

The question is what it says about HaShem. And we'll have to see what He thinks of that sort of explanation. I suspect that the answer will prove to be, "Not much."

But on that note, let me ask you a question: did God bless Abraham and deed the Land of Israel to His offspring?
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LuckyR
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Re: Moral Compass

Post by LuckyR »

Janoah wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 7:57 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 4:58 am

Is it correct to say that you believe democracy is not as benevolent as having a "benevolent" supreme leader?
Let's say, for example, the current president of Egypt, who came to power as a result of a military coup, and wins a sham presidential election, is preferable to the previous president, who was democratically elected, but was a representative of "Muslim Brotherhood".

Plato called tyranny the worst type of government, but he also called democracy a bad type of government.
But our theme here is not a form of government, but a moral compass.
Labelling one form of government "worst" and another "bad", without naming a "best" and "good" is intellectually lazy at best.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Moral Compass

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Janoah wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 7:48 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 2:02 am
Janoah wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2023 10:19 pm

Conscience is what distinguishes man from animal.
An animal can be trained in manners that are considered “moral”, a dog can be trained not to bite, and a parrot can be trained to say “thank you” and “please”, but this will not make the animal moral, neither high nor low.
As they say, a dog is a man's friend, but it's bad when a man is a dog.
There are loads of variables that distinguish man from animal.
Conscience is one such variable but it does not mean that conscience is exclusively and 'absolutely' related to morality-proper.

See:
Conscience Can Trigger Vile Actions
viewtopic.php?t=41184

But if you don’t follow your conscience, then what should you follow?

If people have taken following their conscience as a principle, then they will be able to find a peaceful consensus on controversial issues.
Philosophy will help them with this.

I answered there in your topic.
My point here as I had learned, we cannot equate conscience as related to morality exclusively without reservations.

Conscience is triggered in the case of non-compliance to some 'expectations' rules, standards, etc. which can be moral or whatever.

In your case as a Christian, your supposed expectations of compliance is ALL that is stipulated within the Gospels [not the whole Bible].
If your belief is very strong, your conscience will be triggered when you have any impulse that go against what is stipulated in the Gospels e.g. the impulse to commit adultery [kill].
In this case you will have to follow your conscience else you will be sinning with a threat of hell.

In the extreme case, if a person religion commands or permit genocide in a certain situation and if he did not commit genocide when given the opportunity, it may also trigger his guilty conscience, especially if those he did not kill subsequently went on to kill a large number of his tribe.

For a secular person, his conscience may be triggered when his impulse contravene his intuitions of 'what is moral'.

Conscience is not the critical issue here, rather it is the constitution that dictate the direction of the conscience.

So, what is critical is to ensure the moral constitution is sound [not evil] such that if the conscience is triggered, a person's actions will be directed towards the good and not the evil.

What is most critical is to cultivates one's moral constitution to be as sound and competent as possible such that the person will be spontaneously moral without any bad impulse where there is no need for the conscience to be triggered.
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Janoah
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Re: Moral Compass

Post by Janoah »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 6:19 am
In your case as a Christian,
No, I'm not a Christian.

I am a Jew and live in a settlement in Israel.

***where there is no need for the conscience to be triggered***

Conscience is always on, it is important not to neglect it.
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Re: Moral Compass

Post by Janoah »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:34 pm
But on that note, let me ask you a question: did God bless Abraham and deed the Land of Israel to His offspring?
An inner voice told Abraham that the One had blessed him and deed the Promised Land to his offspring.
And it seems that history has confirmed and continues to confirm the correctness of this prediction.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Moral Compass

Post by Immanuel Can »

Janoah wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:30 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:34 pm
But on that note, let me ask you a question: did God bless Abraham and deed the Land of Israel to His offspring?
An inner voice told Abraham that the One had blessed him and deed the Promised Land to his offspring.
Well, let me follow up on your answer, if I may: was there an actual "One" to bless him and make the promise, or was Abraham merely hallucinating or making a wish, like Mohammed obviously did about the Night Journey and the Temple?

If it was just Abraham's "inner voice," then all that seems to be is Abraham deciding he wanted Israel, and so he really has no right to it, nor do his descendants. Unless HaShem is a real Person, and actually intervened in the world to speak to Abraham in a miraculous way, it seems to me that Israel's bereft of claim to the Land.

How far are you prepared to go then, in insisting there can be no miracles because of Uniformitarianism? Will you go so far as to deny the legitimacy of Israel's claim to the Land?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Moral Compass

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Hilariously, Immanuel attempts to "out-Jew the Jew". And succeeds!

Janoah honors his post-religious comfort-level and will only go so far as to say that Abraham 'heard an inner voice' but that what he heard became manifest truth like Manifest Destiny.

But Immanuel cannot stop there. God is a real *person* floating around somewhere who, technically, is listening in to what I am saying and likely following these threads with indignant interest!

Janoah is in a bind even if he does not realize it: he no longer *believes* in the straight-up classical (and necessary sense) and yet the *shadow* of belief still falls over him. The interesting thing is that this *shadow* falls over all of us, to one degree or another.
Unless HaShem is a real Person, and actually intervened in the world to speak to Abraham in a miraculous way, it seems to me that Israel's bereft of claim to the Land.
The "God's Chosen" trope and the "God gave Israel to the Jews" must be answered with either an absolute *yes* or a *no* -- there really is no in-between "sort of" or "in a way".

Suite à la prochaine, mes enfants!
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Re: Moral Compass

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Curiously, traditional and Orthodox Judaism denies in the most rigid and adamant terms the foundation of Christian belief. It is impossible that an Orthodox Jew *believe in* the entire story of Jesus Christ in the Gospels. Not only that but (historically) Jesus was understood to be the Jew's worst enemy and indeed aligned with Amalek and Haman.

Unless of course either of these resort to a dual-dispensation model (and this is what in fact does occur).

And miracle of miracles the Christian Zionist is Jewish Zionism's most loyal helper. Christian Zionism, especially American Christian Zionism, *supports* Israel in all that it does to reclaim and recover the land that God gave. In fact it is Christian Zionism that influenced Jewish Zionism.

The death and destruction in Israel and Gaza can be traced back to the *faithful* position.

"Ideas have consequences".

You might wonder who is manipulating who? Do Israeli Zionists manipulate their (often none-too-intelligent) American Christian Zionist chorus? Or do Christian Zionists manipulate the Israeli Zionists?
Dispensationalism is a theological framework of interpreting the Bible which maintains that history is divided into multiple ages or "dispensations" in which God acts with his chosen people in different ways.[1]: 19  The term "dispensationalism" is attributed to Philip Mauro, a critic of the system's teachings in his 1928 book The Gospel of the Kingdom.

Dispensationalists use a literal interpretation of the Bible and believe that divine revelation unfolds throughout the Bible. They believe that there is a distinction between Israel and the Church, and that Christians are not bound by Mosaic law. They maintain beliefs in premillennialism, a future restoration of national Israel, and a rapture of the Church that will happen before the Second Coming of Christ, generally seen as happening before a period of tribulation.

Although some of its concepts can be traced to early church history, it was systematized and promoted by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren in the mid-19th century[/b]. Dispensationalism began its spread in the United States during the late 19th century through the efforts of evangelists like James Inglis, James Hall Brookes, Dwight L. Moody, the efforts of the Niagara Bible Conference, and the establishment of Bible Institutes. With the dawn of the 20th century, C. I. Scofield introduced the Scofield Reference Bible, which solidified dispensationalism in the United States.

Dispensationalism is commonly found in nondenominational Bible churches, Baptists, Pentecostal, and Charismatic groups. Conversely, Protestant denominations that embrace covenant theology as a whole tend to reject dispensationalism.
Last edited by Alexis Jacobi on Fri Nov 17, 2023 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Harbal
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Re: Moral Compass

Post by Harbal »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 3:46 pm

The "God's Chosen" trope and the "God gave Israel to the Jews" must be answered with either an absolute *yes* or a *no* -- there really is no in-between "sort of" or "in a way".
I thought the UN gave Israel to the Jews, but whoever it was, I do know it wasn't theirs to give. :|
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