Philosophy Now Forum

Oh, jeez: you have the people with no moral compass who can manage to kill many more people but call it collateral damage, who can put people into a prison colony - the electricity and water of which they can simply turn off - they can seal these people into their city, so they cannot leave - they own that country, control that country, lock in that country, and will end up with more children's blood on their hands, but in a more modern less individualized form of violence that is their priviledge.

And you have the people with no moral compass with less resources, who kill in a more personal way, while screaming idiotic things, and who hope by putting their own people in harm's way also they will somehow get something or maybe at least have a nice few days catharting their hate

Two terrible moral compasses with long historie of lacking moral compasses.

and by the way, demagoguery is one of the means prescribed by Islam.
I’m not saying that this is bad, but I'm just noting your success in demagoguery.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:42 pm Oh, jeez: you have the people with no moral compass who can manage to kill many more people but call it collateral damage, who can put people into a prison colony - the electricity and water of which they can simply turn off - they can seal these people into their city, so they cannot leave - they own that country, control that country, lock in that country, and will end up with more children's blood on their hands, but in a more modern less individualized form of violence that is their priviledge.

As a Gentile, it's a constant source of amazement to me how quick the world is to jump on Israel, and how absolutely willing to overlook the wickedness of their enemies that the world is.

I've seen the video, and you can too: because it's all over the internet. The Gazans entered Israel with a vicious intent. There can be no doubt that when people are hacking the heads off babies, their purpose is not war but total genocide. When they rape young women, and then sit on their dead bodies as trophies of their lust and contempt, when they kidnap and torture whole families, when they indiscriminately machine-gun civilians...their intent is nothing less than total eradication. And when they routinely use not only their captives but their own citizens as fodder for their terrorism, what can you call that but a death cult?

So if the world wants to now call on Israel to be "proportional" in its response, what would "proportional" look like?

Well, I call on Israel to be not proportional, but much more moral than Hamas.

We know Israel cannot do anything but respond: Hamas has made it clear that is impossible. But they should do so without rape, without torture, and without genocide. Give civilians a chance to flee...even if they don't choose to. Send notice of where strategic bombings must be about to take place. Leave open a corridor to Egypt, so that the refugees from the Hamas insanity can rush their children to freedom...Hamas has no moral compass...don't let Israel drop it's compass, even in time of all-out war -- which Hamas, not Israel, declared.

Hey, wait a minute: isn't that exactly what Israel is doing? So why is the world still flapping its miserable gums at Israel?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 6:15 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:42 pm Oh, jeez: you have the people with no moral compass who can manage to kill many more people but call it collateral damage, who can put people into a prison colony - the electricity and water of which they can simply turn off - they can seal these people into their city, so they cannot leave - they own that country, control that country, lock in that country, and will end up with more children's blood on their hands, but in a more modern less individualized form of violence that is their priviledge.

As a Gentile, it's a constant source of amazement to me how quick the world is to jump on Israel, and how absolutely willing to overlook the wickedness of their enemies that the world is.

I've seen the video, and you can too: because it's all over the internet. The Gazans entered Israel with a vicious intent. There can be no doubt that when people are hacking the heads off babies, their purpose is not war but total genocide. When they rape young women, and then sit on their dead bodies as trophies of their lust and contempt, when they kidnap and torture whole families, when they indiscriminately machine-gun civilians...their intent is nothing less than total eradication. And when they routinely use not only their captives but their own citizens as fodder for their terrorism, what can you call that but a death cult?

So if the world wants to now call on Israel to be "proportional" in its response, what would "proportional" look like?

Well, I call on Israel to be not proportional, but much more moral than Hamas.

We know Israel cannot do anything but respond: Hamas has made it clear that is impossible. But they should do so without rape, without torture, and without genocide. Give civilians a chance to flee...even if they don't choose to. Send notice of where strategic bombings must be about to take place. Leave open a corridor to Egypt, so that the refugees from the Hamas insanity can rush their children to freedom...Hamas has no moral compass...don't let Israel drop it's compass, even in time of all-out war -- which Hamas, not Israel, declared.

Hey, wait a minute: isn't that exactly what Israel is doing? So why is the world still flapping its miserable gums at Israel?

BECAUSE of what the people in "israel" STARTED, and have CAUSED and CREATED here?

Oh, and by the way, WHY NOT let the people in a parcel land of called "gaza" travel into and live in a parcel of land called "israel"? WHY MUST absolutely 'innocent civilians' be FORCED INTO a land called "egypt"?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 6:15 pm As a Gentile, it's a constant source of amazement to me how quick the world is to jump on Israel, and how absolutely willing to overlook the wickedness of their enemies that the world is.

I didn't overlook them. You're a poor discussion partner.

"But he started it!" is the constant plaint of four year olds. Who cares who started it? That was a long time ago (75 years and more) Get over it!

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 7:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 6:15 pm As a Gentile, it's a constant source of amazement to me how quick the world is to jump on Israel, and how absolutely willing to overlook the wickedness of their enemies that the world is.

I didn't overlook them.

Well, what, exactly did you expect Israel to do? Keep supplying Hamas with water and electricity, which they were using to sustain their fighters and to perform their technical work on shooting rockets at Israel? Did you expect them not to target-bomb or to enter the southern territories sufficiently to make Hamas stop, and to free their hostages, if possible? If we grant that war had been declared on them by Hamas -- bloody, all-out, conscienceless, genocidal war, which is the case, obviously -- what could they have done, that they have not done?

Let's be practical here: tell them what you would do.

"But he started it!" is the constant plaint of four year olds. Who cares who started it? That was a long time ago (75 years and more) Get over it!"

Difficult to get over when a partition is built like the fuckin berlin wall through your homeland and your people are forced into a population density worse than LA and you're monitored by big brother every time u pick up the phone.

My question is, why did Hamas wait this long.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:42 pm Oh, jeez: you have the people with no moral compass who can manage to kill many more people but call it collateral damage, who can put people into a prison colony - the electricity and water of which they can simply turn off - they can seal these people into their city, so they cannot leave - they own that country, control that country, lock in that country, and will end up with more children's blood on their hands, but in a more modern less individualized form of violence that is their priviledge.

And you have the people with no moral compass with less resources, who kill in a more personal way, while screaming idiotic things, and who hope by putting their own people in harm's way also they will somehow get something or maybe at least have a nice few days catharting their hate

Two terrible moral compasses with long historie of lacking moral compasses.

The OP is about why Hamas do not have a moral compass NOT anything else.

The usual 'what about this or that ..' is off topic.

Since, it has veered off topic,
yes, both Israel and Hamas had committed evil acts, but to be more philosophical and rational, the additional question is .. to what degrees of evilness as conditioned upon the human-based evil FSK.

Off hand, the degree of evilness within the Hamas evil-FSK is high on the chart because killing of human-babies is one of the worst evil and that is permissible within their Constitution i.e. the holy texts.

I don't think Israel has such a permission to kill and massacre babies and civilians within their Constitution. Anyone can show otherwise?

Within the Jews just like any other group of people, there will be those with terrible evil potentials, but that has nothing to do with Israel in this case.

The evil tensions between Israel and Hamas can only be resolved effectively upon a working human-based moral-proper FSK which is not likely at least till another 2-3 generations.

In the meantime, the solution can only be resolved or mitigated within the political FSK.

If not possible, like in the current situation, then is force vs force.
In this case, Israel has its political right to get rid of the threat [the root cause] from Hamas [capable of the worst evil] like what the West did with ISIS and as such collateral damage is inevitable.
The problem in this case is, Hamas is too arrogant or ignorant in stirring the hornet's nest thus deserved the consequences.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 6:47 am

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:42 pm Oh, jeez: you have the people with no moral compass who can manage to kill many more people but call it collateral damage, who can put people into a prison colony - the electricity and water of which they can simply turn off - they can seal these people into their city, so they cannot leave - they own that country, control that country, lock in that country, and will end up with more children's blood on their hands, but in a more modern less individualized form of violence that is their priviledge.

And you have the people with no moral compass with less resources, who kill in a more personal way, while screaming idiotic things, and who hope by putting their own people in harm's way also they will somehow get something or maybe at least have a nice few days catharting their hate

Two terrible moral compasses with long historie of lacking moral compasses.

The OP is about why Hamas do not have a moral compass NOT anything else.

Yes, I understood that. I was responding to many posts that were focused on aiming blame at one of the sides. It seems, often in these kinds of discussions, that one team must be wrong and the other right. But, as you indicate below, both sides can manage to do horrible things in a conflict. And the acts of the other side may not in any way justify the acts on 'your' side.

That said in the context of an Israeli/Hamas war, anyone weighing in on the morality of one side, needs to expect that the wider context and the possible immorality or horribleness of the other team will be brought up. It is part of the context. It can be implicit that someone weighing in on one side's immorality is saying that side is worse, for example. I am not saying that is your position, but I think it makes sense to address the wider context.

The usual 'what about this or that ..' is off topic.

Since, it has veered off topic,

Imagine two people are fighting. You walk into the room and start telling one of them the immorality of their actions. The other person and their friends or sympathetic stranger third parties in the same room, will likely feel that while you may have been focused on a specific point, the act of aiming criticism at one side and not the other is a stance on both parties.

I realize this is a philosophy forum and not a conversation, however 1) it is going to be this way with such charged topics. 2) the first four responses are then off-topic. And the bulk of the thread then moves to a different focus from your OP's 3) My post was not a what about this, what about that. Given that people are, in the majority in the thread comparing, I think they need to understand that the relative power and technology of groups in conflict is a huge factor in how killing takes place. Those with power can kill with the pen, with embargos, from a distance, impersonally, and also through subtler means. This in no way excuses, for example, many of the things Hamas did in those opening days. But I think some people are biased towards noticing crimes where passion is present and not noticing bureaucratic and cold murder in the same ways. 4) from what I can see you even reponded to these other off topic comments, such as here...
viewtopic.php?p=673157#p673157
focusing on Jews which are not mentioned in the OP. And here getting into a comparison between religions discussion...
viewtopic.php?p=673575#p673575
And here you are chiding me, the first person you seem to notice has extended the topic of the thread.

yes, both Israel and Hamas had committed evil acts, but to be more philosophical and rational, the additional question is .. to what degrees of evilness as conditioned upon the human-based evil FSK.

But my point was NOT that they both have committed evil acts, but rather the nature of their approaches to violence relates to their relative power, access to technology, what technology and other similar factors. The whole civilization's violence vs. 'the barbarians.' Has a long history. Of course it is not simple. Obviously Hamas has access to some modern technology, but they are very hampered by Gaza being a closed off country (half a country, but not connected to the other part), not having direct access to the outside world and basics like water, electricity, food and so on, and facing a vastly superior military power. Again, since most people can't manage to hear such things as anything but an excuse for the acts of the David vs. Goliath, no I think many of the things they did have been despicable almost beyond my ability to respond in rage.

Off hand, the degree of evilness within the Hamas evil-FSK is high on the chart because killing of human-babies is one of the worst evil and that is permissible within their Constitution i.e. the holy texts.

More Palestinian babies have already been killed. See Skepdick's first post. And that's via direct violence. Indirect killing of babies has also taken place and much more will in the coming days.

I don't think Israel has such a permission to kill and massacre babies and civilians within their Constitution. Anyone can show otherwise?

But they do it anyway. They just tend not to do it at the individual level. And it would be silly to argue that the Israeli government is working from the Torah. Sociopaths, in general, are running things. They may use religious traditions when it is convenient, but it's all about power and rage and, yes, the joy these people take in control, terrorizing and suppressing, using and killing.

But this is not my topic. You think you are responding to my post, but you're not actually. Which is fine, in general, just as I think it is fine that people included more contextual reactions to your OP. But since I was being called out for being off-topic, I can only say with a smile that what you thought my point was was not my point.

I've explained what my point was above. And I think it turns out to be relevant. You clearly judge Hamas more than Israel. What might have been implicit in the OP, in any case turns out to be true about your beliefs.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 8:43 am ..
I've explained what my point was above. And I think it turns out to be relevant. You clearly judge Hamas more than Israel. What might have been implicit in the OP, in any case turns out to be true about your beliefs.

As I had stated, if a morality-proper FSK is established, then we will not have the current problem.

But given the current stalemate political and religious based problem, what you want Israel to do?
Just kill the same number of Hamas or Palestinians and accept ceasefire?

From the OP and being rational in relation to the present circumstances is it obvious I agree, to get rid of Hamas which is most evil is the most optimal solution at present just like how the West got rid of ISIS from where it was active.

It is expected, if Hamas [the evil religious organization, not the Palestinian people] continue to exists as it, they will continue to strengthen with its proxies assistance and Israel existence will definitely be threatened in the near future given the ideology of Hamas and its like.

Note the vision and mission of Hamas is to get rid of or exterminate all the Jews in Israel and they do not agree to any negotiation. This is the central ideology of Islam as dictated in the Quran.
Are you even aware of this? if not what?
Don't be so ignorant like those from the LCGTQ who blindly and stupidly are pro-Hamas when Hamas will throw them off buildings when Hamas get to them.

Therefore it is OPTIMAL at present [for humanity sake] to remove Hamas the terror organization from GAZA and replace it with a more reasonable organization that is receptive to negotiation.
Israel must also be reasonable in preventing their hardcore from grabbing more land in the name of their religion or give back land they have taken illegally.

So what is your solution?
Ceasefire .. so Hamas can continue to be strengthened thus, that Hamas in the future can exterminate all the Jew in Israel?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 9:21 am

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 8:43 am ..
I've explained what my point was above. And I think it turns out to be relevant. You clearly judge Hamas more than Israel. What might have been implicit in the OP, in any case turns out to be true about your beliefs.

As I had stated, if a morality-proper FSK is established, then we will not have the current problem.

Well, sure if everyboyd agrees, then we don't have the current problem. Though that's not related, not remotely directly, to what I was writing about.

But given the current stalemate political and religious based problem, what you want Israel to do?
Just kill the same number of Hamas or Palestinians and accept ceasefire?

Now you're asking me to go further out on a tangent I didn't start. One implicit assumption is that responsibility began for both sides a week ago. It's a lot more complicated than that.

From the OP and being rational in relation to the present circumstances is it obvious I agree, to get rid of Hamas which is most evil is the most optimal solution at present just like how the West got rid of ISIS from where it was active.

The West might have wanted to look a bit more carefully into how it set the conditions for ISIS. And that discussion would be even further off topic.

It is expected, if Hamas [the evil religious organization, not the Palestinian people] continue to exists as it, they will continue to strengthen with its proxies assistance and Israel existence will definitely be threatened in the near future given the ideology of Hamas and its like.

Note the vision and mission of Hamas is to get rid of or exterminate all the Jews in Israel and they do not agree to any negotiation. This is the central ideology of Islam as dictated in the Quran.

Sure, and there similar groups, much quieter but more effective than Hamas, trying to move things in that direction in Israel in relation to Arabs.

Are you even aware of this? if not what?

Sure, I am. None of this changes or even directly relates to what I wrote.

Don't be so ignorant like those from the LCGTQ who blindly and stupidly are pro-Hamas when Hamas will throw them off buildings when Hamas get to them.

1) Don't talk to me like that. 2) I'm not pro-Hamas and have made that clear a number of times. What's wrong with your brain?

Therefore it is OPTIMAL at present [for humanity sake] to remove Hamas the terror organization from GAZA and replace it with a more reasonable organization that is receptive to negotiation.

Well, they might want to also consider not using Israel as a proxy in the Mideast.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?ref=sea ... t%20Israel
A video that I think only presents part of the picture, but at least it points to how oversimplified your view is. And it's not even getting into the way Palestinians have been treated in systematic ways by the official organs of the Israeli government and military.


But, again, this is all besides the point. I was talking about how the relative power and resources of the combatants lead to different kinds of crimes. But you seem incapable of responding to that and after a post I write critical of both sides, you assume that means I am proHamas. Don't be dumb like....some dumb person.

You've joined the great mass of voices that see just two teams involved and assume that one team must be chosen and anyone who doesn't choose the right team to support in any conflict is ignorant. You seem to know little about the wider context and if I had a year and the interest I could post you, but you're someone who simply will not admit he is wrong about anything. And will redefine words, ignore points made, strawman, shift the topic, shift the goal posts, and generally just restate his position as if this is a response.

It's ironic that I've been chided several times, and not by Peter Holmes of Flash Dangerpants, for respecting you too much.

You tell me that my post is off-topic and then manage not to respond to it. You respond to other off-topic posts as if they are on-topic, but mine gets chided for being off topic, and responded to as if it meant something else.

Israel must also be reasonable in preventing their hardcore from grabbing more land in the name of their religion or give back land they have taken illegally.

There might have to be just a few other changes necessary.

So what is your solution?
Ceasefire .. so Hamas can continue to be strengthened thus, that Hamas in the future can exterminate all the Jew in Israel?

Yes, please make up solutions that I haven't presented and rebut them. Also, assume that one should shut up unless one presents a solution, like the half-baked solutions you present here.

Please feel free to go back to your topic. Whatever you are doing here had little to do with what I wrote.