Freeing of the Will

[Wizard22]

In order to define freedom, you have a de-limit other concepts. Freedom is a delimiting principle. Using 'freedom' in any other way is deceptive, and the opposite of what the word means or refers to.

People lie, especially Politically.

They'll convince a slave he or she is free, when she is not. So freedom can be a lie. It can be a false belief. There's a difference between 'truly' free, and falsely free.

[Wizard22]

Defining freedom is essentially the same as defining infinity.

The human mind tries to place a limit or finitude, on something limitless or infinite. That's how the physical process of understanding and conceptualization operates within the brain. Because the brain 'physically' cannot do this, a different form of definition or conceptualization is required. And this solution is simple. The definition is Undefined. It remains Undefined. It is an ongoing process.

Definitions change over time. Nothing is set in stone, nothing permanent. That's fine, because 'freedom' doesn't need a permanent definition.

It is a conceptual construct, ongoing, continually being built and added to, by individuals, and by humanity as a collective.

[Flannel Jesus]

I'm not exactly a determinist either, but the problem with this short, succinct quote is that the word "free" is ambiguous. Free from what? Or alternatively, free TO what?

This was your disagreement with Imp's statement, "ambiguity".

That wasn't a disagreement, that was a request for clarity.

What's my rationale? Can you explain that bit?

[Harbal]

Impossible is impossible to define,

Not according to most dictionaries.

If an action or event is impossible, it cannot happen or be achieved:

[Wizard22]

That wasn't a disagreement, that was a request for clarity.

What's my rationale? Can you explain that bit?

His summation was short enough for most people to understand without ambiguity. This was not the case for you. So you either know what he meant, but are fishing for a rhetorical flaw. Or you didn't know what he meant, and genuinely need a context of freedom, which you do not imply or refuse to admit to, that most others do not require. Because what is moral responsibility? For starters, it means that you have, or at least should accept the consequences of your actions, and of your choices/decisions.

But, if you were hypothetically not in control of your own choices/decisions, then the moral responsibility is moot. Or worse, it doesn't even exist.

[Wizard22]

Not according to most dictionaries.

I recommend you read the Dictionary instead of my threads then.

The Dictionary should never suffice anybody interested in Philosophy. Philosophy requires very expansive, involved definitions, and directly connected to Reality.

I've found, the more extensive the definition people have of any phenomena, the easier it is for people to accept/reject what they say or believe, along with directly exemplifying their aptitude and general intelligence about it.


So, again, you should avoid and ignore my threads, stick to the Dictionary for your guide and reference to life and reality.

[Flannel Jesus]

That wasn't a disagreement, that was a request for clarity.

What's my rationale? Can you explain that bit?

His summation was short enough for most people to understand without ambiguity. This was not the case for you. So you either know what he meant, but are fishing for a rhetorical flaw. Or you didn't know what he meant, and genuinely need a context of freedom, which you do not imply or refuse to admit to, that most others do not require.

No, bullshit. "for most people to understand without ambiguity." - most people would absolutely NOT understand freedom to unambiguously mean what you said it means - the ability to do everything physically possible and physically impossible.

[Dontaskme]

Why is so much of Humanity afraid of Freeing their Will, and instead choose comforts, security, habit, the known, over all the Greater desires and ideas that they could possibly have?

What do you mean by implying there is a 'someone' who is afraid of Freeing their will? ...Surely there's just what's happening at any given moment in time in this immediate unconditioned freedom to be.

''Unconditioned'' simply meaning, free to make a choice, free to do action, free to will anything to happen via the intention to do so.
To intentionally cause an effect by being unconditionally free to do so.

Isn't every 'intention' or 'action' the rider of the will to perform a cause and it's effect, that can't ever be anything other than it's consequential outcome in this unconditional immediate present moment of happening?

So I don't understand what you mean by saying ''Freeing their will''

For me personally as I understand the word FREE.. is to mean unconditional, else the word FREE is meaningless.
As far as I understand FREE. Reality was never free because reality is never bound.

[Iwannaplato]

Okay, so here you link the 'Compatible' views of free-will line up with how most people consider religion or their religious beliefs.

No. If you really think most people who believe in free will are compatibilists, you could make that assertion, if you want. I think if you ask most religious people if the universe had to unfold the way it has and the future has to unfold in just one way, they will balk. They believe in free will. You wanna get in their convince them that actually they believe in compatiblism, which they would disagree with, give it a shot.

Why would that be the case? Is free-will natural, or supernatural?

The is not relevant to the point.

OK, now you start with 'yes.' Before it was as if I put words in your mouth.

In any case, I wouldn't use free will in this context, but rather freedom. How can one become more free?
Well, there is a lot written about how on a political level. So, I'll focus very quickly how one can on a more self-relation level: Most belief systems want you to be split against yourself. Question that and don't go along with that.

I agree, and the first restriction you went to is Politics.

Sure, there are restrictions to freedom in the political realm. Or at least some political systems allow for a wider range of activities that are not criminal and punished.

I am not 'going to' a restriction, but rather in previous posts you have mentioned freedom in relation to things that are political.

Why isn't freedom and will necessarily linked? What relevance is freedom, except to you first subjectively?

Perhaps if you ever getting around to explaining your justification for whatever your version of free will or freedom is, then I can help on that issue. So far in our exchange I haven't seen it. If you have done it elsewhere, link me to the post(s). No need for you to repeat it. You keep talking about our free will. Could you define it and justify that it exists.

You're missing the point here. It's about what 'belief' in free-will, that you are free or not, does to a person, does to their mind, does to their body. This can be simplified. Simply ask yourself generally, "am I free or not"? Yes is positive. No is negative. Your answer is your belief or disbelief. Your answer is critical because free-will is a belief that affects everything else.

I'm not missing your point. I am asking you to justify your position. All I see is a lot of generalities.

Do you believe that people make Choices? Do you believe that they are responsible for those Choices?

Yup.
So, how do you soar in way that you see determinists do not? How do you soar and what kinds of things, concrete actions and choices, that you see other people, including myself do not?

I know that every single human being who has ever existed, or will exist, uses themselves first as an example of what they believe to be free or unfree. So Free-Will is really an exposition of your spirit or soul. It's almost like a Confession. People confess to their Restraints, Limitations, Inabilites. They do not do the same for traits they Desire, for what they Want and Will.

What restraint did I confess to?
Are you always making assumptions about people? Don't you have some other more worthwhile freedom.
I notice you don't quote something that demonstrates I don't soar. I notice you give no examples of how you soar?

I just see vague abstractions. For all I know you sit in apartment, work a shit job, have no social life, have never tried anything.

I don't even know what you think soaring is.

But for some reason you are sure you can judge and dismiss me and that you must be soaring in ways I am not. You're talking out of your ass.[/quote]

[You said this:

"So, people's wills are not free until you choose to free them. Again, wrong subforum. You're not talking about the free will discussed in Metaphysics."

Your interpretation is that "I chose" to free them, and that it is not free-will metaphysically. That's your response! Where did I say anything about "me choosing for them"??

Yup, I said that. And in what you quoted about I admitted by grammar was poor and explained what I meant. I'd make fun of you for thinking I actually meant my freedom depended on Wizard, but the internet is filled with weird people, so, fine you thought I meant it that way and I did write it poorly. But above here you've quoted me explaining that.

I don't think you release my free will. or are responsible for it.

I have time constraints. Take em as you get em. I guess my free-will isn't Absolute then is it? I still have some time transcendence to do...

Convenient time constraints. You managed to repeat claims about me that you have no evidence for. You managed to write a bunch of abstract stuff. After three responses you managed to write a lot of words but not to give a single example of what you mean by soaring and what you have done that is soaring.

You just seem like a bluff.[/quote]

For starters, you claim to value freedom, but show no demonstration to hint at support of a free-will. Why is that?

Actually I have criticized the positions of determinists. It's fine that you've missed that, but it's still you assumption.

Again...

You haven't given a single example of you soaring. You haven't given a single example of what you dream of achieving, some future soaring. You made claims about me, but did nothing to back them up.

You haven't clarified what YOU are talking about.

What am I hoping to accomplish?

Are you now answering what you meant by soaring??

Maybe a little bit of philosophy, maybe a little clarity. I like to gain knowledge, wisdom, insight into the world. If I can 'free' a mind here or there along the way, then that's worthy of doing too. I only say this because of its relevance to the topic, and the belief by which people either believe, or do not believe, they have a free-will.

Great, I am sure some of the determinists have similar goals.

So, now going back to the OP,

You haven't given a single example of you soaring. You haven't given a single example of what you dream of achieving, some future soaring. You made claims about me, but did nothing to back them up.

You haven't clarified what YOU are talking about. You started a thread. You said some vague stuff. I've been asking a really rather simple set of questions about what you meant. Concrete examples of this soaring. Soaring you see free will believers doing that determinists are doing and how you know this? You own soaring. It seems implicit that you think that you as a believer in free will soar in some way that determinists do not? What are those ways? Is it creative activities? Have you taken on authority? What's your soaring on a concrete level?

Why is so much of Humanity afraid of Freeing their Will, and instead choose comforts, security, habit, the known, over all the Greater desires and ideas that they could possibly have?

What greater desires do you see yourself having that determinists don't? Not beliefs, but desires. Not more abstractions but concrete examples of your soaring and what soaring you yearn for.

or this...

Free to do everything physically possible, and free to do everything physically impossible. All of it.

Can you give some examples of some of the ways you've done some impossible things, or even just some things you consider show you prioritize freedom more than determinists or other people?

[Harbal]

Philosophy requires very expansive, involved definitions, and directly connected to Reality.

But you wouldn't give a definition. In fact, you said it wasn't possible. I must say, for one who believes that achieving the impossible is just a matter of freeing the will, you must not have been trying very hard to free yours.

So, again, you should avoid and ignore my threads, stick to the Dictionary for your guide and reference to life and reality.

Let me put your mind at rest: I wouldn't dream of taking one of your threads as a guide and reference to life and reality.

[Wizard22]

No, bullshit. "for most people to understand without ambiguity." - most people would absolutely NOT understand freedom to unambiguously mean what you said it means - the ability to do everything physically possible and physically impossible.

Who cares what I think about it?

When people say 'yes' or 'no' to free-will, THEY fill in the blanks with THEIR idea of freedom, of what constitutes 'free' to them. They say 'no', because they-themselves do not feel 'free' according to THEIR subjective definitions.

You misunderstand the 'subjective' part.

Harbal misunderstands the 'definitions' part.

I control neither. It's what THEY believe.

[Flannel Jesus]

No, bullshit. "for most people to understand without ambiguity." - most people would absolutely NOT understand freedom to unambiguously mean what you said it means - the ability to do everything physically possible and physically impossible.

Who cares what I think about it?

When people say 'yes' or 'no' to free-will, THEY fill in the blanks with THEIR idea of freedom, of what constitutes 'free' to them. They say 'no', because they-themselves do not feel 'free' according to THEIR subjective definitions.

You misunderstand the 'subjective' part.

Harbal misunderstands the 'definitions' part.

I control neither. It's what THEY believe.

Okay, seems like you're not really prepared for this conversation. That's alright.

[Wizard22]

What do you mean by implying there is a 'someone' who is afraid of Freeing their will? ...Surely there's just what's happening at any given moment in time in this immediate unconditioned freedom to be.

''Unconditioned'' simply meaning, free to make a choice, free to do action, free to will anything to happen via the intention to do so.
To intentionally cause an effect by being unconditionally free to do so.

Isn't every 'intention' or 'action' the rider of the will to perform a cause and it's effect, that can't ever be anything other than it's consequential outcome in this unconditional immediate present moment of happening?

So I don't understand what you mean by saying ''Freeing their will''

For me personally as I understand the word FREE.. is to mean unconditional, else the word FREE is meaningless.
As far as I understand FREE. Reality was never free because reality is never bound.

Consider the constraints of 99.9% of people.

As infants, as small children, as young adolescents, etc. all humans are indoctrinated into social systems of behavior. They are taught what is 'right' or 'wrong', legal or illegal, good or evil or bad. They are expected to follow these social norms. Some of this is metaphysical. It's not only about what these children can NOT do, what they MUST NOT do, but also what they must NOT THINK. So this level of indoctrination is very powerful, very persuasive. All people recognize this, on a subconscious level if not a conscious level. That's how indoctrination works. It's better, more effective, if the masses don't realize they're being brainwashed, convinced, persuaded, moved, lied to, etc.

So when I talk about "free-will", people believe they are NOT free, by how their indoctrination and "education" educated them to be, and what to believe. This is their Moral basis.

Why are people scared? Because, if they confronted these "common sense" truths, truisms, social conditioning, then what would that then mean? It would mean that: they could not trust their parents, their peers, their teachers, their extended family, their state, their GOD. That's scary.

That's why they're scared by the idea (of freedom, of free-will).

[Wizard22]

Okay, seems like you're not really prepared for this conversation. That's alright.

OH RLY?

How so?

[Flannel Jesus]

Okay, seems like you're not really prepared for this conversation. That's alright.

OH RLY?

How so?

Well, you don't seem to be aware of what ambiguous means - if everyone is coming up with their own idea of what a word means, that's a textbook example of an ambiguous meaning. You're just coming across as very shitty about everything rather than engaging in a straightforward manner. And, like in your previous interactions, you just seem painfully unfamiliar with the topic as a whole.