Philosophy Now Forum

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:19 pm

dattaswami wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:34 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:44 am
Do you think he can use logic and rationality to change the Islamists mind?

I agree such hard core terrorist cannot be changed in a flip of a second. The wrong knowledge is injected into his brain by others over a period of time and it is strengthened like a hill. In such situation it is very difficult to break that hill, but not impossible. Even a terrorist has some logic by which only he is practically behaving in that particular way. By your sharp analysis, you have to change that logic and then only reformation and realization comes even in terrorist. You must enlighten the misinterpretation of the scripture like Jihad, which is the fight for justice in the context of killing each other due to difference in the religions existing in the time of Prophet Mohammad. The situation of killing each other can be controlled by fight and sometimes in extreme conditions by removing some limbs like hands, legs etc. Killing can be stopped by fights or such severe punishments. Today when such context of killing is not there, you cannot bring the concept of Jihad to the context of today.

Trying to change the mind of present terrorist prone individuals is a lost cause.

The current Perfect Quran which is immutable cannot be changed or altered since no fallible humans can change the words of the infallible God.
As such as long as one is a Muslim [as defined] as contracted that Muslim must comply with all the term of the contract as stipulated and agreed as in the 6236 verses of the Quran.
There is no question of misinterpreting the Perfect immutable Quran.

The only possible change for good is to change average moral competence [MQ] of humanity.
The change is moral competence can only be done with changes in the neuron connection in the brain and genes in the DNA. This is possible in the future, next 50, 75, 150 years or more from now.
I have been discussing this possibility of change in increasing the Moral Quotient in the Ethical Theory Section.

One clue you can note is how long term meditation can change the brain structure for good.

• http://www.andrewnewberg.com/
  Dr. Andrew Newberg is a neuroscientist who studies the relationship between brain function and various mental states. He is a pioneer in the neurological study of religious and spiritual experiences, a field known as “neurotheology.” His research includes taking brain scans of people in prayer, meditation, rituals, and trance states, in an attempt to better understand the nature of religious and spiritual practices and attitudes.

Not sure you are aware or not, meditation like Vispassana [& others] can improve one's impulse controls thus can inhibit evil impulses at source.

The concept of mindfulness is based on Vipassana, a Buddhist meditation technique. The present study examines the physiological indices of attention and autonomic regulation in experienced Vipassana meditators to test the claim that mindfulness is an effective therapeutic tool due to its effects on increasing awareness of present experience and emotional self-regulation.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 6013002146

Such meditation at present are crude and not specific. It may not work with everyone.
In the future, I am very optimistic humanity will have the knowledge to assist the individual[s] to self-develop his moral quotient [MQ] brain and genes wise up to 100 times higher than our current average MQ.

A person with high MQ will definitely find that the morality level in the Quran abhorrent and will definitely leave Islam voluntarily and naturally; perhaps convert to Christianity or other pacifist religions with higher moral standards.

Your apologist attitude toward that religion is a lost cause and in a way is an insult to your intelligence in trying to squaring the circle.

The wrong knowledge (ideas) present in the brain of terrorist shall be replaced by the right knowledge which is that all the religions leads to the same God, there is only one God, loving one another, helping other people, respecting other religions etc will have to be imparted into the terrorists brain.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:23 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:50 am Does it matter which face is used to represent this concept?

Love it

He still hasn't answered my question... and I really want to know the answer.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:19 pm
Such meditation at present are crude and not specific. It may not work with everyone.
In the future, I am very optimistic humanity will have the knowledge to assist the individual[s] to self-develop his moral quotient [MQ] brain and genes wise up to 100 times higher than our current average MQ.

A person with high MQ will definitely find that the morality level in the Quran abhorrent and will definitely leave Islam voluntarily and naturally; perhaps convert to Christianity or other pacifist religions with higher moral standards.

Your apologist attitude toward that religion is a lost cause and in a way is an insult to your intelligence in trying to squaring the circle.

Divine knowledge is like a medicine to be administered to such terrorist for their reformation.

dattaswami wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:43 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:19 pm Your apologist attitude toward that religion is a lost cause and in a way is an insult to your intelligence in trying to squaring the circle.

The wrong knowledge (ideas) present in the brain of terrorist shall be replaced by the right knowledge which is that all the religions leads to the same God, there is only one God, loving one another, helping other people, respecting other religions etc will have to be imparted into the terrorists brain.

The more you counter, the more you are exposing your intelligence.

Surely you understand there is a big difference [GAP] between knowing and the ability to do what one knows.
Do you need me to explain this?

But in the case of Islamists there is no way you can replace your ideas with what is already in the brain, i.e. indoctrinated as contracted to their God.

dattaswami wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 2:26 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:19 pm
Such meditation at present are crude and not specific. It may not work with everyone.
In the future, I am very optimistic humanity will have the knowledge to assist the individual[s] to self-develop his moral quotient [MQ] brain and genes wise up to 100 times higher than our current average MQ.

A person with high MQ will definitely find that the morality level in the Quran abhorrent and will definitely leave Islam voluntarily and naturally; perhaps convert to Christianity or other pacifist religions with higher moral standards.

Your apologist attitude toward that religion is a lost cause and in a way is an insult to your intelligence in trying to squaring the circle.

Divine knowledge is like a medicine to be administered to such terrorist for their reformation.

You are displaying your ignorance again and merely spewing wishful thinking.

The first-ever Muslim invasion in India took place in the year 712 AD. Mohammad Bin Qasim invaded India and conquered Sindh Province in 712 AD.
The Mughal Empire ruled most of the Indian subcontinent between 1526 and 1857.

Islamists occupied India for more than 1000 years where >80 millions [estimated] Indians were killed.
India was supposed to be filled with high degree of divine knowledge since 5000 years ago from the Vedas.
Why is the Divine Knowledge [medicine] when administered could not prevent the terrible evils of the Islamists from occupying India for >1000 years and killing > 80 million Indians.

Your continuing to give narrow minded ideas is merely exposing your ignorance and insulting your intelligence.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 4:44 am

But in the case of Islamists there is no way you can replace your ideas with what is already in the brain, i.e. indoctrinated as contracted to their God.

Yes it is not an overnight task. I may take years together. There are also good people in every religion they if can be convinced then the results will be great. If one get such logical persons in any religion that is sufficient. It will yield results.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 4:57 am

Islamists occupied India for more than 1000 years where >80 millions [estimated] Indians were killed.
India was supposed to be filled with high degree of divine knowledge since 5000 years ago from the Vedas.
Why is the Divine Knowledge [medicine] when administered could not prevent the terrible evils of the Islamists from occupying India for >1000 years and killing > 80 million Indians.

Your continuing to give narrow minded ideas is merely exposing your ignorance and insulting your intelligence.

Following a religion strictly and simultaneously following the universal spirituality of all world religions are one and the same concept. I illustrate this by an example. You have the required medicine for a specific disease in a single bottle. If you strictly take 4ml of the medicine per day from that single bottle only, your illness is completely cured, since the quality of the medicine is same in all the four bottles. 4ml per day from a single bottle or 1ml per day from four bottles stand to be the same in both quality and quantity. Firm belief and strict discipline in using the medicine must exist whether you take the specific quantity of the same medicine from one bottle or from four bottles. You cannot say that a person strictly following the use of medicine from one bottle only, rejecting other bottles, as blind fool in the sense of curing the illness by using the medicine.

When you scold the same medicine in other three bottles, it reflects your foolishness of theoretical ignorance. But, in practical sense, there is no loss if a conservative devotee follows the use of medicine from a single bottle rejecting the other three bottles. Even in the case of a wise man with broad mentality (of universal spirituality) using the same medicine in the same quantity from all the four bottles, the conservative and severe sincerity and firm faith on medicine is the same as that of a conservative blind devotee using the same medicine from a single bottle. As far as the faith on the medicine and the practical usage of specified quantity of medicine is concerned, both universal devotee and conservative devotee are one and the same.

Of course, the conservative devotee is not at all blamed in following the use of medicine from a single bottle, but, is blamed for scolding the same medicine in the other three bottles due to ignorance. Instead of scolding, the conservative devotee must be silent about the other bottles and should concentrate on the single bottle about which only he has total faith. You may say that even if the patient scolds other three bottles, the medicine of his selected bottle will not affect in its quality and function. You are perfectly correct, but, you are crossing the limits of simile and applying the concept to the outer restricted area of limits of the simile. Here, the simile is inert medicine and not a living person. This is the limit of the simile and concept is applicable to simile as long as you don’t scold the medicine of other three bottles. The medicine here is compared to God, who is not inert, but has awareness to the extent of infinity based on which we say that God is omniscient. If you praise a person in one dress and scold the same person in other dresses, is he not hurt since he is not like the inert medicine? Since the God in all religions is one and the same, all your praise to God in a specific form of a specific religion goes not only waste, but also, make God to become furious.

Hiranyakashipu was a strong devotee of Lord Shiva, but, scolds Lord Vishnu. Both Shiva and Vishnu are different forms or external medium of the same inner unimaginable God. Lord Vishnu appeared as Narasimha and killed the demon. You should note that Lord Shiva did not protect the demon at all! What is the reason? The reason is that Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu are the same one entity wearing the external media or forms called Shiva and Vishnu. This is the concept between two sub-religions called Shaivism and Vaishnavism in the same Hindu religion. This story is one and the same whether it is in micro-level (sub-religions of Hindu religion) or at macro-level (world religions like Hinduism, Christianity, Islam etc.).

The first part of the scripture presents the severe discipline and firm faith in the medicine to be followed by every devotee of each religion. In the second part of universal spirituality, the revered Prophet Mohammed warns every devotee of each religion not to scold forms of God of other religions. Allah is one external form represented by Islam religion. Jehovah is another form of God presented by Christianity. Brahman is another form of God presented by Hinduism and so on. God is one and the same present in all the world religions. You are advised to respect and serve your father sincerely. If possible, realize the fathers of all other people also equal to your father and respect and serve them. If it is not possible, respect and serve your father only and not scold and insult others’ fathers.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 7:09 am

Walker wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 6:52 am That’s a pretty ham-handed con.
Looks more like unsophisticated self-promotion.
Ever watch any Bollywood movies? They’re also ham-handed.

Sure, it's a crosscultural situation.
The most humorous, in a crosscultural situation, is this one, where he presents himself as all these holy figures or experts.
.

I have no issues with anyone who claims to have received divine revelations from God, for I am always open to examining those revelations in order to see if they hold up to scrutiny.

However, what dattaswami doesn't seem to understand is that by trying to impart spiritual knowledge to the modern world by continuing to use the old and worn-out mythological imagery and dogma of Hinduism,...

(or the iconic imagery and dogma of any of the old religions, for that matter)

...makes him seem as out-of-place on this forum as this guy is...



...walking the streets of a modern city after being plucked from some isolated jungle tribe.

Or as incongruent as what is implied in this image...



Furthermore, the enormous ego of the person who has no problem representing himself in images such as this...



...or tacitly implying that he is the living incarnation of the Creator of the universe, is probably too delicate to handle the fact that he's just an ordinary slob like the rest of us.

Now, of course, I would never say never to any plausible possibility, and if he has something new to add to the conversation,...

(as opposed to simply parroting/peddling the ancient [and dubious] dogma of a world religion that's already been around for thousands of years)

...then, by all means, let's hear it.

However, the fact that dattaswami...

(the alleged most recent living incarnation of the Creator of the billions of galaxies of this universe)

...uses the pathetically lame parlor tricks of this shameless charlatan...



...(Shri Satya Sai Baba) as his go-to source for the existence of miracles and as proof of divinity, is all anyone needs to know about the depth of his wisdom and the integrity of his assertions.

Now, I apologize for being so harsh about this, but humanity will never awaken into a new (and unifying) spiritual paradigm as long as people like dattaswami (or Immanuel Can) keep pushing the divisive trappings of the old paradigm.
_______

seeds wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:58 pm
However, what dattaswami doesn't seem to understand is that by trying to impart spiritual knowledge to the modern world by continuing to use the old and worn-out mythological imagery and dogma of Hinduism,...
_______

Nobody opposes science because the fundamental concepts in science are based on practical experiments. Spiritual knowledge must also start at the basic level of the practical experience of miracles, which alone can convince atheists and scientists. Thus, the experience of miracles serves as the foundation of spiritual knowledge.

The concept that God is unimaginable is stated in the Veda (Yato vāco, aprāpya manasā, Na medhayā, Naiṣā tarkeṇa etc.) and in the Gita (Māṃ tu veda na kaścana). So, no soul can ever know the true nature of God. That is why miracles play a crucial role in spirituality. Miracles have always been performed by several genuine God-men, but they have also been performed by several devilish black magicians.

We are only concerned with the miracle and not the qualities of the performer of the miracle. When a scientific experiment is demonstrated by a demonstrator, we are only concerned with the experiment and not the qualities of the demonstrator. No matter who performs the miracle, it proves to the persons witnessing the miracle that an unimaginable power exists, which is not different from the unimaginable God Himself! It is only in view of this positive angle, that God allowed even devils to perform these unimaginable acts called miracles. The miracles allow all people in this world to recognize the existence of the unimaginable power or the unimaginable God.

Ultimately, the source of the unimaginable events must be the unimaginable God Himself. Thus, miracles serve as the direct proof, based on perception for the existence of the unimaginable God. Of course, miracles only prove the existence of God. The nature of God always remains unimaginable. Most recently, Shri Satya Sai Baba performed a variety of miracles and fortunately, there are several recorded videos showing His performance of the miracles.

The scriptures speak about the unimaginable God and unimaginable miracles are often exhibited by God-men. In spite of the clear existence of both the theoretical and the practical basis, the exact link between the concept of unimaginable God and the observed unimaginable miracles had not been clearly established by anybody, so far.

The credit for the same goes to God Datta who established this fundamental link through the medium of this Datta Swami. With this link established, we can introduce the concept of unimaginable God on the basis of practically-experienced miracles. Miracles in spiritual knowledge, thus, serve the same function as practical experiments in science. They conclusively prove the theoretical concepts. Linking miracles to the theoretical spiritual concepts as the practical demonstration of spiritual concepts, formally makes them part of spiritual knowledge. When spirituality is equipped with this practical proof in the form of miracles, it becomes a systematic subject with the same reliability as science. Then nobody can speak anything against it, just as no body can speak against science today.

seeds wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:58 pm humanity will never awaken into a new (and unifying) spiritual paradigm as long as people like dattaswami (or Immanuel Can) keep pushing the divisive trappings of the old paradigm.

I think humanity will awaken despite them and despite the bog they attempt to lure others into for their own self-validation and need. They don't know any better.

seeds wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:58 pm However, the fact that dattaswami...

(the alleged most recent living incarnation of the Creator of the billions of galaxies of this universe)

...uses the pathetically lame parlor tricks of this shameless charlatan...

...(Shri Satya Sai Baba) as his go-to source for the existence of miracles and as proof of divinity, is all anyone needs to know about the depth of his wisdom and the integrity of his assertions.

Now, I apologize for being so harsh about this, but humanity will never awaken into a new (and unifying) spiritual paradigm as long as people like dattaswami (or Immanuel Can) keep pushing the divisive trappings of the old paradigm.
_______

I black box Sai Baba's abilities. Perhaps he managed. Perhaps he didn't. Let's say he could make fruit out of thin air. Does this mean his belief system is correct or his morals or the dynamics of his relations to others? No. For example, it could mean that one gains some kind of power/skill when one practices process X (meditation, etc) for many years. This doesn't preclude one is wrong about other things or has problematic sexual relations or any of a number of important confusions and character flaws or that one's models may be off in other ways that are fundamental.

It's a common human heuristic. X was right about B (or seemed to be) so X must be right about all the other stuff. That's actually a useful heuristic, especially when our X has been right about a number of things. We all listen to experts and often foolishly assume that since they are right about these 6 things (or seemed to be) it is always correct to agree with them about other things.

There is no easy simply heuristic for dealing with experts, but realizing that they most likely are flawed at least leaves us open to the possibility that they can be right about a lot of stuff but not about X.

We are not in a position where we must either decide Sai Baba was a trickster so we can ignore his belief system OR he could do some magical type stuff, so his spirituality is correct, period.

There are a lot of other options that should not be excluded.

seeds wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:58 pm ...makes him seem as out-of-place on this forum as this guy is...



...walking the streets of a modern city after being plucked from some isolated jungle tribe.

Well, here are some modern people out in public in the city I grew up in....






I can get what you are saying on a very distant metaphorical level. But it looked a bit like dismissing someone for going against norms of dress or even extremely different weltanschauung necessarily being a problem. Nor is the age of an idea a problem. It's when they can't be flexible in their communiation, here. Or choose to have a communication dynamic that precludes dialogue.

I'd guess the guy in your image is Papuan. If he's an average Papuan he'd probably not be able to communcate well here, but neither would most of the modern people walking on that street. A shaman from his tribe however might be able to communicate with philosophers. Further I wouldn't rule out animism - since I am an animist lol - just because it's an old belief, even older than some of the crappy things that DS is selling. Modern physicalism, I think, is very problematic, but it's fairly recent.

To me it's not the age of an idea, but can the person actually see other viewpoints. Can they interact with questions. They don't have to give up their ideas, but be able to discuss them with some flexibility.

seeds wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:58 pm humanity will never awaken into a new (and unifying) spiritual paradigm as long as people like dattaswami (or Immanuel Can) keep pushing the divisive trappings of the old paradigm.

That's just the expression of a ''spiritual ego'' which is completely illusory.

Life, the all that is, is already wide-awake, it's already this awake pure absolute unknowing enlightenment; just as it is; moment by moment now and always this one unitary action.
Absolutely No One ''awakens'' here, except in the illusory conceptual dream of separation.

That the 'human mind' has artificially separated what is always already THIS unchanging whole and complete absolute enlightenment, is illusory.
Any prior belief that 'I am a separate individual', or any false sudden realisation that 'I am not a separate individual' from this absolute unchanging unknowing enlightened whole; changes nothing.
The very idea of a 'paradigm shift' taking place is pure illusion.

Life for the human species sense of I am an individual self ( illusory trap) changes nothing.
Life will carry on the same as it ever was; chop wood, carry water, chop wood, carry water.....Nothing changes. Nothing is real.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:28 am

seeds wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:58 pm However, the fact that dattaswami...

(the alleged most recent living incarnation of the Creator of the billions of galaxies of this universe)

...uses the pathetically lame parlor tricks of this shameless charlatan...

...(Shri Satya Sai Baba) as his go-to source for the existence of miracles and as proof of divinity, is all anyone needs to know about the depth of his wisdom and the integrity of his assertions.

Now, I apologize for being so harsh about this, but humanity will never awaken into a new (and unifying) spiritual paradigm as long as people like dattaswami (or Immanuel Can) keep pushing the divisive trappings of the old paradigm.
_______

I black box Sai Baba's abilities.

What do you mean when you say that you "black box" his abilities?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:28 am Perhaps he managed. Perhaps he didn't. Let's say he could make fruit out of thin air. Does this mean his belief system is correct or his morals or the dynamics of his relations to others? No.

Did you watch the videos of Baba performing what dattaswami calls "miracles"?

Here: https://youtu.be/oNVJyycAZYw, and here: https://youtu.be/lnCwebH0gyk

Sorry, but I'm not giving him (or any human) the benefit of the doubt of being able to materialize objects out of thin air, for it is obvious that he's a fraud in that regard.

And the problem is that, just like the Benny Hinn's of the Christian side of this con game, Sai Baba used that fraudulent practice to manipulate people into giving him money.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:28 am I'd guess the guy in your image is Papuan.

Yes, at least that's what I gathered from the source from which I nicked that image.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:28 am If he's an average Papuan he'd probably not be able to communcate well here, but neither would most of the modern people walking on that street.

That wasn't the point I was attempting to convey.

The point was (is) that dattaswami...

(like the proponents of all of the ancient world religions)

...is stuck in a primitive belief system that has been left floundering in the wake of the discoveries of modern physics and cosmology. And as such, the tenuous (but tolerable) relationship between science and spirituality that humans have been operating in for the last several millennia has been thrown way out of whack.

In other words, we need a new and more plausible spiritual "weltanschauung" that can restore some semblance of balance between the material sciences and the spiritual sciences.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:28 am A shaman from his tribe however might be able to communicate with philosophers. Further I wouldn't rule out animism - since I am an animist lol - just because it's an old belief, even older than some of the crappy things that DS is selling. Modern physicalism, I think, is very problematic, but it's fairly recent.

To me it's not the age of an idea, but can the person actually see other viewpoints. Can they interact with questions. They don't have to give up their ideas, but be able to discuss them with some flexibility.

Well, seeing how the divergent and incompatible ideas that make up the world religions has us on the brink of destroying ourselves, then I suggest that they all need to give up something in order to make way for a higher and more unifying vision of reality.

Anyway, in the spirit of discussing ideas, your confession of being an animist sounds interesting to me (in a good way).

First, let's look at the standard definition of animism:

an·i·mism
NOUN

• 1. the attribution of a soul to plants, inanimate objects, and natural phenomena.
  
  2. the belief in a supernatural power that organizes and animates the material universe.

Which of those two descriptions of animism do you lean toward? Or is it both?
_______

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 4:13 pm
In other words, we need a new and more plausible spiritual "weltanschauung" that can restore some semblance of balance between the material sciences and the spiritual sciences.

No, we do not need anything. There is no one needing a need, nor is a need ever needed, because here, there is only EVERYTHING happening all at once one without a second, including the idea "weltanschauung" is needed.
There is here, just what's happening in every moment, now and now and now, including the 'spiritual ego' that says...

''is stuck in a primitive belief system that has been left floundering in the wake of the discoveries of modern physics and cosmology. And as such, the tenuous (but tolerable) relationship between science and spirituality that humans have been operating in for the last several millennia has been thrown way out of whack''

In other words, need is only within the artificial dream of separation where there is none, and nothing ever happened in a dream, and yet the dream is all there is.