Philosophy Now Forum

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:07 pm Why do you think any situation in a deterministic system will produce options that are "equally likely"?

A deterministic system does not produce options but it may face options.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:09 pm Take Conway's game of Life. The code deterministically determines the next state from the previous state, based on rules. The rules are followed, and they determine the next state of the system precisely every time. There's no "options". Just rules about what happens next.

All computer programs are deterministic even when there are options (of course when options are not equally liked).

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:50 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:07 pm Why do you think any situation in a deterministic system will produce options that are "equally likely"?

A deterministic system does not produce options but it may face options.

I don't have any reason to believe that a system like the universe itself necessarily faces "options" at all

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:06 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:03 pmYes

Exactly because of this, a deterministic system cannot evolve any further when the options are equally like since there is no reason to choose one option over another.

No choice is equal, ever.
Choices are not made by reason alone, but by inclination, motivation, emotional states, needs, wants, desires.
Your model of reality is fake

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:57 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:50 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:07 pm Why do you think any situation in a deterministic system will produce options that are "equally likely"?

A deterministic system does not produce options but it may face options.

I don't have any reason to believe that a system like the universe itself necessarily faces "options" at all

You do face options all the time.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:00 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:06 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:03 pmYes

Exactly because of this, a deterministic system cannot evolve any further when the options are equally like since there is no reason to choose one option over another.

No choice is equal, ever.
Choices are not made by reason alone, but by inclination, motivation, emotional states, needs, wants, desires.
Your model of reality is fake

How about the road that forks?

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:03 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:00 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:06 pm
Exactly because of this, a deterministic system cannot evolve any further when the options are equally like since there is no reason to choose one option over another.

No choice is equal, ever.
Choices are not made by reason alone, but by inclination, motivation, emotional states, needs, wants, desires.
Your model of reality is fake

How about the road that forks?

There are no two roads that are the same. It is impossible.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:02 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:57 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:50 pm
A deterministic system does not produce options but it may face options.

I don't have any reason to believe that a system like the universe itself necessarily faces "options" at all

You do face options all the time.

I'm not the universe. I'm something within the universe. Just because I "face options" doesn't mean the universe, in computing how the laws of physics apply to the next moment in time, faces options. The universe, in calculating physics, has no conception of the options that I face all the time. It doesn't need to. It doesn't care

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:06 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:03 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:00 pm

No choice is equal, ever.
Choices are not made by reason alone, but by inclination, motivation, emotional states, needs, wants, desires.
Your model of reality is fake

How about the road that forks?

There are no two roads that are the same. It is impossible.

I am talking about a road that forks and you don't know which one takes you to the destination you are interested in. I am talking about you waniting to invest in market but you don't know that the price of share goes up or down, etc.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:24 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:02 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:57 pm
I don't have any reason to believe that a system like the universe itself necessarily faces "options" at all

You do face options all the time.

I'm not the universe. I'm something within the universe. Just because I "face options" doesn't mean the universe, in computing how the laws of physics apply to the next moment in time, faces options. The universe, in calculating physics, has no conception of the options that I face all the time. It doesn't need to. It doesn't care

Well, the argument is established if I show that there is one entity that faces options.

I don't think it is. Just because you feel like you face options doesn't mean the universe isn't deterministic

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:00 pm I don't think it is. Just because you feel like you face options doesn't mean the universe isn't deterministic

I am talking about free agents within the universe rather than the free universe.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:52 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:06 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:03 pm
How about the road that forks?

There are no two roads that are the same. It is impossible.

I am talking about a road that forks and you don't know which one takes you to the destination you are interested in. I am talking about you waniting to invest in market but you don't know that the price of share goes up or down, etc.

So am I. Choice is determined by a complex of factors, a whim is enough.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:03 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:00 pm I don't think it is. Just because you feel like you face options doesn't mean the universe isn't deterministic

I am talking about free agents within the universe rather than the free universe.

You are not advancing a claim for free will contra determinism.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:03 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:00 pm I don't think it is. Just because you feel like you face options doesn't mean the universe isn't deterministic

I am talking about free agents within the universe rather than the free universe.

I just don't see any compelling reason to accept any of your claims, first of all, but even more than that, I can't understand why this version of free will you've presented is even relevant, at all, to anything.

Free will is philosophically important in 2 contexts: morality (or ethics), and in making sense of "the feeling of having free will". In both of those contexts, the concept of free will is not only not limited to these "completely equal unbiased choices", is very explicitly about choices where people do have a bias. So your new conception of free will runs completely contrary to every reason anybody has to talk about free will at all. You've trivialised the concept with your definition into something philosophically empty.