Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:44 pm**

simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:34 am
Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:23 pm
simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm
Perhaps we should ask what meaning is.

Meaning is similar to economic value. It is something that must be desired as well as something that must have a component of human effort [similar to a commodity having a market and the addition of labor-value]. Just like things that are "free" [i.e., widely available...like air] have no economic value, things that lack effort [the taking of responsibility] have no meaning. Again, meaning is what we add to things through our efforts/care.

This is why people who refuse to take responsibility are miserable. There is no free lunch. Although another can supply you with economic fruits, you will never have the satisfaction of doing for yourself [one of the many reasons why welfare systems destroy adults]. In the same vane, those [adults] who refuse to take responsibility are essentially children, completely dependent and living lives without meaning. Look out any window, you can see them by the millions...folks obsessed by all of the addictions that have taken the place of meaning in modern life.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:23 pmThat is a personal view.
You might do better to present it as such rather than try to push it as a generalised case.
Do you believe I am capable of presenting anything other than my personal view?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:23 pmA budhist would probably say that you shall never understand the world until you have let go all possession, expecially your responsibilities.
A Buddhist who truly understood would say nothing of the sort. Realization is simply seeing things as close to reality as is possible, nothing more.
You present as general.
I have to tell you that rejecting responsibility is the only route to happiness, as millions can demonstrate.

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:25 pm**

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:44 pm You present as general.

Point taken. There are some things that might apply as such. Knowing is one.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:44 pmI have to tell you that rejecting responsibility is the only route to happiness, as millions can demonstrate.

Being responsible does not mean doing whatever you are "supposed to." It means following your heart. Wisdom is seeing what the truth of the matter is and acting accordingly.

By "happiness" I am assuming you mean being content. The only way to get there is doing what you need to do. This is taking responsibility.

If you do mean happiness in the commonly held way, then there are many ways there [but the feeling is always fleeting...creating unhappiness in its wake].

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:38 pm**

simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:25 pm
Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:44 pm You present as general.
Point taken. There are some things that might apply as such. Knowing is one.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:44 pmI have to tell you that rejecting responsibility is the only route to happiness, as millions can demonstrate.
Being responsible does not mean doing whatever you are "supposed to." It means following your heart. Wisdom is seeing what the truth of the matter is and acting accordingly.

By "happiness" I am assuming you mean being content. The only way to get there is doing what you need to do. This is taking responsibility.

No way.
I need to not take responsibility. Why would I want more pressure?
You won't win an argument by just reapeating the same thing.

If you do mean happiness in the commonly held way, then there are many ways there [but the feeling is always fleeting...creating unhappiness in its wake].

Following your heart can mean giving up attachements as easily as gathering moss.
There is no joy in more and more. Ultimatley we all die and leave it all behind.

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm**

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:38 pm
simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:25 pm
Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:44 pm You present as general.
Point taken. There are some things that might apply as such. Knowing is one.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:44 pmI have to tell you that rejecting responsibility is the only route to happiness, as millions can demonstrate.
Being responsible does not mean doing whatever you are "supposed to." It means following your heart. Wisdom is seeing what the truth of the matter is and acting accordingly.

By "happiness" I am assuming you mean being content. The only way to get there is doing what you need to do. This is taking responsibility.
No way.
I need to not take responsibility. Why would I want more pressure?
You won't win an argument by just reapeating the same thing.

If you do mean happiness in the commonly held way, then there are many ways there [but the feeling is always fleeting...creating unhappiness in its wake].
Following your heart can mean giving up attachements as easily as gathering moss.
There is no joy in more and more. Ultimatley we all die and leave it all behind.

Responsibility is not some kind of obligation imposed on someone they are required to fulfill. No one has to recognize their responsibility, but no one can escape it.

Responsibility only means one cannot escape the consequences of their own choices. No one is responsible to or for anyone else, but everyone is responsible for what they do and choose, and ultimately it is either recognize their responsibility, and live accordingly, or evade it, and suffer.

Responsibility is recognizing the ruthless implacable demands of reality.

Reality is ruthless. Defy reality, and it will destroy you. Refuse to work, and you will starve. Refuse to learn, and the mistakes you make in your ignorance will kill you.

Reality is demanding. You must conform to the nature of reality all the time, because the moment you let up, it will strike you down. Stop paying attention, just for a few moments, while driving on the highway at 70 miles per hour. Don't bother paying your bills for a month. Forget your insulin injections for a day. Just forget where little Sarah is for a while at the Mall.

Reality is unforgiving. You've made a mistake, but the law forgives you, your parents and friends forgive you, you even manage to forgive yourself, but reality never forgives. It may be a forgivable mistake, but the dead animal cannot be made alive again, the pregnant girl cannot be made "unpregnant", you cannot cancel what you have done, ever! You do something stupid and loose an arm, a leg, or put out your own or someone else's eye. You may never do another thing so foolish, and you may be forgiven by others, but you will never have the arm, leg, or eye restored. Reality never forgives.

Responsibility is just recognizing all you are and experience in this world is the consequence of what you choose.

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:51 pm**

simpl,

Responsibility means such things as a burden, accountability, reliability or trustworthiness.

As such, you seem to have it that love is a burden and that bearing this burden is a way to be held accountable. But I don’t think you have meant to imply this at all.

Please clarify again what your idiosyncratic definition of the word responsibility is.

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:31 pm**

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:51 pm simpl,

Responsibility means such things as a burden, accountability, reliability or trustworthiness.

As such, you seem to have it that love is a burden and that bearing this burden is a way to be held accountable. But I don’t think you have meant to imply this at all.

Please clarify again what your idiosyncratic definition of the word responsibility is.

Responsibility is doing what you need to do. You are responsible [to yourself and others] if you have made the most of your opportunities/potential. This is different for each individual.

Each person knows whether they are being responsible as there is an immediate feedback mechanism. If you feel good after doing something, its an indication that you are on the right path. The opposite applies as well.

In the end, comes down to intention and hard work.

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:41 pm**

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:38 pm No way.
I need to not take responsibility. Why would I want more pressure?

You see the taking of responsibility as creating pressure? I see the shirking of responsibility as the same.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:38 pm Following your heart can mean giving up attachements as easily as gathering moss.
There is no joy in more and more. Ultimatley we all die and leave it all behind.

I completely agree with the above.

Following your heart means that you go with what you believe in 100%. It has nothing to do with material possessions [in particular]. To get to the point where you can follow your heart 100%, one must understand who they are and what their relationship is with reality. Being responsible in all ways will help enormously on this path.

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:25 pm**

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm
Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:38 pm
simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:25 pm
Point taken. There are some things that might apply as such. Knowing is one.

Being responsible does not mean doing whatever you are "supposed to." It means following your heart. Wisdom is seeing what the truth of the matter is and acting accordingly.

By "happiness" I am assuming you mean being content. The only way to get there is doing what you need to do. This is taking responsibility.
No way.
I need to not take responsibility. Why would I want more pressure?
You won't win an argument by just reapeating the same thing.

If you do mean happiness in the commonly held way, then there are many ways there [but the feeling is always fleeting...creating unhappiness in its wake].
Following your heart can mean giving up attachements as easily as gathering moss.
There is no joy in more and more. Ultimatley we all die and leave it all behind.
Responsibility is not some kind of obligation imposed on someone they are required to fulfill. No one has to recognize their responsibility, but no one can escape it.

It can be exactly that. But why would you assume that I am restricting myself to that definition: I am not.

Responsibility only means one cannot escape the consequences of their own choices. No one is responsible to or for anyone else, but everyone is responsible for what they do and choose, and ultimately it is either recognize their responsibility, and live accordingly, or evade it, and suffer.

Responsibility is recognizing the ruthless implacable demands of reality.

We all have that from before we are born.
None of this is particularly relevant.
Accepting reality does not make any one happy, any more that not doing so makes you sad.

Reality is ruthless. Defy reality, and it will destroy you. Refuse to work, and you will starve. Refuse to learn, and the mistakes you make in your ignorance will kill you.

This is nonsense.

Reality is demanding. You must conform to the nature of reality all the time, because the moment you let up, it will strike you down. Stop paying attention, just for a few moments, while driving on the highway at 70 miles per hour. Don't bother paying your bills for a month. Forget your insulin injections for a day. Just forget where little Sarah is for a while at the Mall.

Reality is unforgiving. You've made a mistake, but the law forgives you, your parents and friends forgive you, you even manage to forgive yourself, but reality never forgives.

You are just being silly now. The law is reality too.

It may be a forgivable mistake, but the dead animal cannot be made alive again, the pregnant girl cannot be made "unpregnant", you cannot cancel what you have done, ever! You do something stupid and loose an arm, a leg, or put out your own or someone else's eye. You may never do another thing so foolish, and you may be forgiven by others, but you will never have the arm, leg, or eye restored. Reality never forgives.

Responsibility is just recognizing all you are and experience in this world is the consequence of what you choose.

Posted: **Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:02 am**

Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 am Now, if you have NOT ALREADY done this, then HOW could have arrived at the conclusion and made the claim; "Assuming responsibility is what gives meaning to life" Accurately, and conclusively?

Remember, you are speaking with somebody who believes that we are incapable of [really] understanding anything at all. Accurately and conclusively doesn't mean a great deal in such a context.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm Meaning is similar to economic value. It is something that must be desired as well as something that must have a component of human effort [similar to a commodity having a market and the addition of labor-value].

Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 amNot necessarily so.

HOW, and WHY, did you arrive at this "conclusion"?
You are looking for absolutes in a relative world. No can do. All things intellectual are constantly changing. It is imperative to understand this dynamic less you get lost in the tsunami of past thoughts and ideas.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm Just like things that are "free" [i.e., widely available...like air] have no economic value, things that lack effort [the taking of responsibility] have no meaning. Again, meaning is what we add to things through our efforts/care.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 amThis sounds like you are just 'trying to' "rationalize" and "justify" your ALREADY obtained and held onto BELIEFS.

In fact you appear to be putting some 'effort' into "rationalizing" your BELIEF here.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm This is why people who refuse to take responsibility are miserable.
This is my experience. Irresponsible people are not happy campers. Is your experience in this regard at odds?

Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 amThere is said to be almost eight billion people alive, on the day when this was written, how many of these people did you interview for your claim here? What are you judging/assessing 'taking responsibility' on, EXACTLY? And, what are you judging/assessing 'miserable' on, EXACTLY?
Well [and I think I am pretty close], 7,965,743,421. The other ones were not available for comment.

Any thing I write is from my life experience. I don't claim to know much of anything [but at least I know what I do not know]. This is most important.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 amAnd, when a person, let us say, 'takes responsibility' on one day, or on one morning, does this mean that they are "happy", on that morning or that day, but, if they do 'not take responsibility' that afternoon, or the following day, then they become "miserable" that afternoon or the following day?
Perhaps it would be one of many factors that would determine how content/miserable they might be.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 amNow, is it at all possible that the idea, "Assuming responsibility is what gives meaning to life", just arose in that head, you began BELIEVING that it is true, and now you are just 'trying to' find the "right" words that you hope will justify/prove true your BELIEFS here?
I would like to take credit for such a thought but I am sure it has been around for thousands of years. It's a fairly basic idea.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm There is no free lunch.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 amThis does NOT, in ANY WAY, make your claim that, 'meaning of life is given by taking responsibility'.

This is NOT to say NOR claim that 'the (ACTUAL) meaning of life' is NOT uncovered or revealed during and while one is 'taking responsibility', but to say that just 'taking responsibility' is what gives meaning to life.
The idea is that you have to "earn" the meaning in life [just as you must earn your economic way through life.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 amWhat gives 'meaning' to ANY thing is human beings, "themselves". Or, what the intrinsic value or nature of some 'thing' is within itself. Human beings doing some 'thing', like 'taking responsibility', by itself does NOT 'give' 'meaning' to ANY thing.
So you are saying that meaning exists separately from the individual. Perhaps you can explain how that would be possible.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm Although another can supply you with economic fruits, you will never have the satisfaction of doing for yourself [one of the many reasons why welfare systems destroy adults].

You really do have, and take, a very narrowed, short sighted, and generalized view of things.

1. Not EVERY human being who refuses to 'take responsibility' are "miserable". I have observed MANY human beings, on MANY occasions, NOT 'take responsibility' and just go out with "others", as though they do not need to 'take responsibility', and enjoy life, living, and being alive.

2. Not EVERY adult who has accessed the welfare system has been "destroyed". I have observed MANY adults who have accessed the welfare system, and then go on and be NOT "destroyed".
Just look at what welfare has done to the Black community in the U.S. as a prime example.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm In the same vane, those [adults] who refuse to take responsibility are essentially children, completely dependent and living lives without meaning.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 amIf you were Truly Honest and OPEN with us I can SHOW and REVEAL MANY TIMES when you are NOT 'taking responsibility'.

Or, do you ACTUALLY BELIEVE that you ALWAYS 'take responsibility'?
I would consider myself a fairly responsible person, yes, but no, I am not perfect.
simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm Look out any window, you can see them by the millions...folks obsessed by all of the addictions that have taken the place of meaning in modern life.
And some of those things you are ALSO addicted to.

Or, do you REALLY BELIEVE that you are DIFFERENT from ALL of those "others"?

Instead of arguing for, and PROVING your claim here irrefutably True, what you are doing more is just using your claim to LOOK AT and JUDGE "others" for NOT being as "good" as you BELIEVE you are.

Talk about NOT 'taking responsibility' here.

My experience leads me to conclude that in most ways I am the same as pretty much the same as everybody else, but in the way I approach life and the way I see things is quite different than pretty much everybody. Very few people understand the non-intellectual and many fewer than that have experienced it to any degree.

Posted: **Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:55 am**

simplicity wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:02 am
Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 am Now, if you have NOT ALREADY done this, then HOW could have arrived at the conclusion and made the claim; "Assuming responsibility is what gives meaning to life" Accurately, and conclusively?
Remember, you are speaking with somebody who believes that we are incapable of [really] understanding anything at all.

But WHY remember ANY 'thing', which supposedly could NEVER be (really) understood anyway?

If you could NEVER (really) understand ANY thing at all, then what you do claim to understand could well be absolutely False, Wrong, and/or Incorrect anyway, correct?

simplicity wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:02 am Accurately and conclusively doesn't mean a great deal in such a context.

Maybe, or maybe not, but let us NOT forget that is was you who made the CLAIM: Assuming responsibility is what gives meaning to life. And, it was you who also stated: Perhaps we should ask what meaning is. Now, what I was doing here was just POINTING OUT and SHOWING how it would be VERY CONTRADICTORY to CLAIM that you KNOW what gives 'meaning to life' BUT THEN CLAIM that we should "now" perhaps ask 'what is meaning?"

But we do not have be concerned about that because you have CLEARED UP that you actually are INCAPABLE of (really) understanding ANY thing AT ALL anyway. Which means that your CLAIM: Assuming responsibility is what gives meaning to life, could just be your OWN complete MISUNDERSTANDING after all.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm Meaning is similar to economic value. It is something that must be desired as well as something that must have a component of human effort [similar to a commodity having a market and the addition of labor-value].

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 amNot necessarily so.

HOW, and WHY, did you arrive at this "conclusion"?
You are looking for absolutes in a relative world.

Am I, (really)?

WHY did you ASSUME this?

Do you have ANY proof for this CLAIM of YOURS here?

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm No can do.

Are you AWARE that one can ACTUALLY do things; like, for example, look for things.

So, YOUR "No can do" is ACTUALLY Yes, one can do 'that'. If they find what they are looking for is ANOTHER matter.

But ANYWAY I was NEVER looking for what you Falsely CLAIMED here. So your view here was moot anyway.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm All things intellectual are constantly changing.

This is ANOTHER moot point, especially considering what I ACTUALLY said and wrote.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm It is imperative to understand this dynamic less you get lost in the tsunami of past thoughts and ideas.

This dynamic was WELL and Truly UNDERSTOOD by me WELL BEFORE I ever saw you say this.

There are two things here now;

1. Do not forget that you just got through TELLING us that you are INCAPABLE of (really) understanding ANY thing at all. So, now saying that "it is imperative to understand ... [ANY/some thing]" appears to be VERY CONTRADICTORY.

2. All I really did here was just ask you: HOW, and WHY, did you arrive at this "conclusion"? And then you when on about some completely DIFFERENT and completely OFF TOPIC talk about some thing that I was NOT even doing.

LOOK, you arrived at some "conclusion", and I am just CURIOS as to HOW, and WHY, you arrived at that "conclusion".

If you do NOT KNOW, then so be it. Just tell us that, INSTEAD, of going off in some completely DEFLECTED direction.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm This is my experience. Irresponsible people are not happy campers. Is your experience in this regard at odds?

'you', "simplicity", refuse to 'take responsibility' and so are an 'irresponsible person'. Now, are you 'miserable'?

There is thee answer to your clarifying question here.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 amThere is said to be almost eight billion people alive, on the day when this was written, how many of these people did you interview for your claim here? What are you judging/assessing 'taking responsibility' on, EXACTLY? And, what are you judging/assessing 'miserable' on, EXACTLY?
Well [and I think I am pretty close], 7,965,743,421.

Are you saying that you interviewed this many people, for your research, from which you obtained your "conclusion" here?

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm The other ones were not available for comment.

Any thing I write is from my life experience. I don't claim to know much of anything [but at least I know what I do not know]. This is most important.

AND, what is 'it' that you SUPPOSEDLY "know" here, and correct me I am wrong, but you are CLAIMING that you KNOW people who do not 'take responsibility' are miserable people, correct?

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 amAnd, when a person, let us say, 'takes responsibility' on one day, or on one morning, does this mean that they are "happy", on that morning or that day, but, if they do 'not take responsibility' that afternoon, or the following day, then they become "miserable" that afternoon or the following day?
Perhaps it would be one of many factors that would determine how content/miserable they might be.

What does the 'it' word refer to exactly here?

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 amNow, is it at all possible that the idea, "Assuming responsibility is what gives meaning to life", just arose in that head, you began BELIEVING that it is true, and now you are just 'trying to' find the "right" words that you hope will justify/prove true your BELIEFS here?
I would like to take credit for such a thought but I am sure it has been around for thousands of years. It's a fairly basic idea.

AND, it is an OBVIOUSLY fairly basic False, Wrong, AND Incorrect idea as well.

So, I suggest CHANGING the people, and their views/ideas, who you are copying off and following from.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm There is no free lunch.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 amThis does NOT, in ANY WAY, make your claim that, 'meaning of life is given by taking responsibility'.

This is NOT to say NOR claim that 'the (ACTUAL) meaning of life' is NOT uncovered or revealed during and while one is 'taking responsibility', but to say that just 'taking responsibility' is what gives meaning to life.
The idea is that you have to "earn" the meaning in life [just as you must earn your economic way through life.

YET, there are millions upon millions of people who do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL to "earn", or MORE CORRECTLY 'get', their economic way through life.

And, what IS 'the meaning in life', EXACTLY, which you CLAIM one HAS TO "earn" that meaning?

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 amWhat gives 'meaning' to ANY thing is human beings, "themselves". Or, what the intrinsic value or nature of some 'thing' is within itself. Human beings doing some 'thing', like 'taking responsibility', by itself does NOT 'give' 'meaning' to ANY thing.
So you are saying that meaning exists separately from the individual.

NO I AM NOT.

Which can be CLEARLY SEEN in what I just wrote and said.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm Perhaps you can explain how that would be possible.

I would FIRST HAVE TO say 'that' BEFORE I could explain HOW 'that' would be possible. And, I did NOT say 'that'.

Maybe if you REREAD the ACTUAL WORDS I said and used here, then you MIGHT SEE things DIFFERENTLY.

simplicity wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:02 am
Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 am
simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm Although another can supply you with economic fruits, you will never have the satisfaction of doing for yourself [one of the many reasons why welfare systems destroy adults].
You really do have, and take, a very narrowed, short sighted, and generalized view of things.

1. Not EVERY human being who refuses to 'take responsibility' are "miserable". I have observed MANY human beings, on MANY occasions, NOT 'take responsibility' and just go out with "others", as though they do not need to 'take responsibility', and enjoy life, living, and being alive.

2. Not EVERY adult who has accessed the welfare system has been "destroyed". I have observed MANY adults who have accessed the welfare system, and then go on and be NOT "destroyed".
Just look at what welfare has done to the Black community in the U.S. as a prime example.

LOL
LOL
LOL

The narrowness of some people NEVER ceases to AMUSE me.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm In the same vane, those [adults] who refuse to take responsibility are essentially children, completely dependent and living lives without meaning.

simplicity wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:02 am
Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 amIf you were Truly Honest and OPEN with us I can SHOW and REVEAL MANY TIMES when you are NOT 'taking responsibility'.

Or, do you ACTUALLY BELIEVE that you ALWAYS 'take responsibility'?
I would consider myself a fairly responsible person, yes, but no, I am not perfect.

So, you, "yourself", do NOT 'take responsibility'. BUT, you will 'try to' "justify", "minimize", or "rationalize" this FACT, exactly like you have SHOWN us here.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:15 pm Look out any window, you can see them by the millions...folks obsessed by all of the addictions that have taken the place of meaning in modern life.

simplicity wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:02 am
Age wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 amAnd some of those things you are ALSO addicted to.

Or, do you REALLY BELIEVE that you are DIFFERENT from ALL of those "others"?

Instead of arguing for, and PROVING your claim here irrefutably True, what you are doing more is just using your claim to LOOK AT and JUDGE "others" for NOT being as "good" as you BELIEVE you are.

Talk about NOT 'taking responsibility' here.
My experience leads me to conclude that in most ways I am the same as pretty much the same as everybody else, but in the way I approach life and the way I see things is quite different than pretty much everybody.

And are you even AWARE that the way EVERY one "approaches life" and "the way they see things" is quite differently, from "each other".

The reason for this becomes FAR MORE CLEAR when you STOP LOOKING AT and JUDGING "others", for the wrong they do, and START LOOKING AT what you, "yourself", do wrong, and START 'taking responsibility' for your OWN wrong doing.

simplicity wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:02 am Very few people understand the non-intellectual and many fewer than that have experienced it to any degree.

Here is ANOTHER GREAT EXAMPLE of one who is CONTINUALLY LOOKING AT "others" and what they do, or do not do, INSTEAD of LOOKING AT 'one's' own "self", and the Wrong that they are CONTINUALLY DOING.

Also, are you (really) 'trying to' claim that you do understand the non-intellectual and have experienced 'it' to some degree?

Your Honest and Truly OPEN answer will be much appreciated.

Posted: **Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:04 am**

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:14 pm
Ansiktsburk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:52 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:59 pm
Love is nothing other than an emotion that drives you to do certain things!
Every emotion and experience affects you.
Yes, but I can resist it.

How do you resist "love", 'hate', 'revenge', et cetera'?

If you inform the rest of humanity HOW you do this, and thus HOW this IS DONE, and they follow you, then this would prevent a LOT of Wrong doing by 'you', human beings.

Posted: **Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:13 am**

simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:25 pm
Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:44 pm You present as general.
Point taken. There are some things that might apply as such. Knowing is one.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:44 pmI have to tell you that rejecting responsibility is the only route to happiness, as millions can demonstrate.
Being responsible does not mean doing whatever you are "supposed to." It means following your heart.

What 'heart'?

The 'heart' in most bodies just pumps blood, around the body. How does one follow that?

simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:25 pm Wisdom is seeing what the truth of the matter is and acting accordingly.

And, thee Truth of the matter is the heart pumps blood. Or, are you referring to some other kind of 'heart' here?

If yes, then what is 'that', EXACTLY?

simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:25 pm By "happiness" I am assuming you mean being content. The only way to get there is doing what you need to do. This is taking responsibility.

WHY do you NEED to 'take responsibility'? And, 'take responsibility' of 'what', EXACTLY? Also, 'take responsibility' for 'what', EXACTLY?

simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:25 pm If you do mean happiness in the commonly held way, then there are many ways there [but the feeling is always fleeting...creating unhappiness in its wake].

What is 'happiness', (in the commonly held way), and what is 'happiness', (in the uncommonly held way)?

Posted: **Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:46 am**

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm
Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:38 pm
simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:25 pm
Point taken. There are some things that might apply as such. Knowing is one.

Being responsible does not mean doing whatever you are "supposed to." It means following your heart. Wisdom is seeing what the truth of the matter is and acting accordingly.

By "happiness" I am assuming you mean being content. The only way to get there is doing what you need to do. This is taking responsibility.
No way.
I need to not take responsibility. Why would I want more pressure?
You won't win an argument by just reapeating the same thing.

If you do mean happiness in the commonly held way, then there are many ways there [but the feeling is always fleeting...creating unhappiness in its wake].
Following your heart can mean giving up attachements as easily as gathering moss.
There is no joy in more and more. Ultimatley we all die and leave it all behind.
Responsibility is not some kind of obligation imposed on someone they are required to fulfill. No one has to recognize their responsibility, but no one can escape it.

Responsibility only means one cannot escape the consequences of their own choices. No one is responsible to or for anyone else,

LOL WHY do you KEEP re-repeating this OBVIOUSLY False, Wrong, and Incorrect CLAIM?

but everyone is responsible for what they do and choose, and ultimately it is either recognize their responsibility, and live accordingly, or evade it, and suffer.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm Responsibility is recognizing the ruthless implacable demands of reality.

Reality is ruthless.

Amazing AND beautiful, as well.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm Defy reality, and it will destroy you.

Defy reality, if possible, and you would NOT have 'come to exist AND be', as well.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm Refuse to work, and you will starve.

If this is in context to money, bartering, or similar, then lol.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm Refuse to learn, and the mistakes you make in your ignorance will kill you.

Children can NOT refuse to learn. Only 'you', adults, do.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm Reality is demanding.

LOL There is absolutely NO thing demanding with Reality, Itself. But, let us NOT forget that absolutely EVERY thing is relative to the observer.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm You must conform to the nature of reality all the time, because the moment you let up, it will strike you down.

As PROVEN by human beings demise and sharp downhill slope towards their extinction, in the days when this was being written.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm Stop paying attention, just for a few moments, while driving on the highway at 70 miles per hour. Don't bother paying your bills for a month. Forget your insulin injections for a day. Just forget where little Sarah is for a while at the Mall.

Reality is unforgiving.

BUT, it was 'Reality' that gave you life, as well, in the beginning. So, Reality can be VERY for-giving.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm You've made a mistake, but the law forgives you, your parents and friends forgive you, you even manage to forgive yourself, but reality never forgives.

But I have probably made countless amounts of mistakes in Life, and I am still here - (forgiven?).

If Reality, supposedly, NEVER forgives, then who, or what, is ACTUALLY doing the FOR-GIVING to those of us who are HERE - living?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm It may be a forgivable mistake, but the dead animal cannot be made alive again, the pregnant girl cannot be made "unpregnant",

When a female gives birth do they remain pregnant, or have they been made 'unpregnant'?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm you cannot cancel what you have done, ever!

In the days when this is being written, this will depend on what will happen when, what is incorrectly called, "time-travel" comes about. But because of what was needed FIRST, before "time-travel" came to exist, you are, actually, Right and Correct here.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm You do something stupid and loose an arm, a leg, or put out your own or someone else's eye. You may never do another thing so foolish, and you may be forgiven by others, but you will never have the arm, leg, or eye restored. Reality never forgives.

But, due to Reality, 'you', human beings, are constantly learning how to better repair, replace or restore arms, legs, and eyes, all the time.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm Responsibility is just recognizing all you are and experience in this world is the consequence of what you choose.

Posted: **Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:57 am**

simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:31 pm
commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:51 pm simpl,

Responsibility means such things as a burden, accountability, reliability or trustworthiness.

As such, you seem to have it that love is a burden and that bearing this burden is a way to be held accountable. But I don’t think you have meant to imply this at all.

Please clarify again what your idiosyncratic definition of the word responsibility is.
Responsibility is doing what you need to do.

Will you provide ANY examples?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm You are responsible [to yourself and others] if you have made the most of your opportunities/potential. This is different for each individual.

Will you provide ANY examples?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm Each person knows whether they are being responsible as there is an immediate feedback mechanism. If you feel good after doing something, its an indication that you are on the right path. The opposite applies as well.

So, if one drinks lots of alcohol or takes lots of drugs or has sex with lots of things, and one feels 'good' after doing those things, then that is an indication that that one is on the right path, correct?

If no, then what are you referring to, EXACTLY?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm In the end, comes down to intention and hard work.

'What', exactly, comes down to intention and hard work, in the end?

Posted: **Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:17 am**

simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:41 pm
Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:38 pm No way.
I need to not take responsibility. Why would I want more pressure?
You see the taking of responsibility as creating pressure? I see the shirking of responsibility as the same.

I found 'taking FULL responsibility' VERY DE-STRESSING.

simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:41 pm
Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:38 pm Following your heart can mean giving up attachements as easily as gathering moss.
There is no joy in more and more. Ultimatley we all die and leave it all behind.
I completely agree with the above.

Following your heart means that you go with what you believe in 100%.

Some people BELIEVE, wholeheartedly, that people of other cultures or religions are less worthy and in fact do not need deserve to live. If, or when, they start killing these people done this mean they are also "following their heart"? They are, after all, going with what they believe in 100%.

simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:41 pm It has nothing to do with material possessions [in particular]. To get to the point where you can follow your heart 100%, one must understand who they are and what their relationship is with reality.

Who are 'you'? Or, in other words, what is your answer to the question, 'Who am 'I'?'

And what, exactly, is 'that's relationship with 'reality'?

Or, are you NOT YET at the point where you can follow "your heart" 100%?

simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:41 pm Being responsible in all ways will help enormously on this path.

So, WHEN are 'you', "simplicity", going to START being responsible in all ways?

And, what path are you talking about here, exactly?

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