Philosophy Now Forum

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:50 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:08 am

Wile E. Coyote

no No Prize for you...

I difinitely would have thought Elmer..

Dick Dork.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:01 am We gotta start lookin' behind the curtain and we best do it now.

OK. You've looked behind the curtain and you've discovered what's really going on. What do you do about it?

Not looking for generalities. What specifically should you, or I, or Veg do about it? Do you really think you can fix it?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:19 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:01 am We gotta start lookin' behind the curtain and we best do it now.

OK. You've looked behind the curtain and you've discovered what's really going on. What do you do about it?

Not looking for generalities. What specifically should you, or I, or Veg do about it? Do you really think you can fix it?

Stop complyin' with 'em....not in dribbles and drabs, either.

Civil disobedience.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:11 amDick Dork.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:55 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:50 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:08 am

Wile E. Coyote

no No Prize for you...

I difinitely would have thought Elmer..

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:19 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:01 am We gotta start lookin' behind the curtain and we best do it now.

OK. You've looked behind the curtain and you've discovered what's really going on. What do you do about it?

Not looking for generalities. What specifically should you, or I, or Veg do about it? Do you really think you can fix it?

I was just about to say you won't get any specifics from Henry but he got in first

His vision is so vague and general it makes a vauum look substantial. His utopia is simply the law of the jungle, which is unworkable because even in the jungle humans lived together in societies--we've simply made things a whole lot more comfortable for ourselves. What Henry envisions would only end up as the dictatorship he claims to despise so much. The only 'freedoms' that matter are free speech and freedom of the press. Any society with those are 'free' societies.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:58 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:19 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:01 am We gotta start lookin' behind the curtain and we best do it now.

OK. You've looked behind the curtain and you've discovered what's really going on. What do you do about it?

Not looking for generalities. What specifically should you, or I, or Veg do about it? Do you really think you can fix it?

I was just about to say you won't get any specifics from Henry but he got in first

His vision is so vague and general it makes a vauum look substantial. His utopia is simply the law of the jungle, which is unworkable because even in the jungle humans lived together in societies. We've just made things a whole lot more comfortable for ourselves. What Henry envisions would only end up as the dictatorship he claims to despise so much.

Veg, you truly don't know what you're talkin' about. I'd correct you but I don't think you want correction (so, I can't see wastin' time).

Instead: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=32456

Bastiat sez everything I would.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:04 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:58 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:19 pm
OK. You've looked behind the curtain and you've discovered what's really going on. What do you do about it?

Not looking for generalities. What specifically should you, or I, or Veg do about it? Do you really think you can fix it?

I was just about to say you won't get any specifics from Henry but he got in first

His vision is so vague and general it makes a vauum look substantial. His utopia is simply the law of the jungle, which is unworkable because even in the jungle humans lived together in societies. We've just made things a whole lot more comfortable for ourselves. What Henry envisions would only end up as the dictatorship he claims to despise so much.

Veg, you truly don't know what you're talkin' about. I'd correct you but I don't think you want correction (so, I can't see wastin' time).

Instead: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=32456

Bastiat sez everything I would.

Still no specifics on how your utopia would work, just a lot of boring waffle that has the nerve to bring god-bothering into the equation. Call yourself 'free' when you have a god-daddy to tell you what to do

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:19 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:01 am We gotta start lookin' behind the curtain and we best do it now.

OK. You've looked behind the curtain and you've discovered what's really going on. What do you do about it?

Not looking for generalities. What specifically should you, or I, or Veg do about it? Do you really think you can fix it?

I'm going to suggest that one thing we begin with is taking careful measures to fend against the presence of evil in man.

This is one of the serious problem with utopian schemes...they all assume that the problems in man are not internal but are external, that they're not caused by what he is, and so they can be addressed merely rearranging the government or the general system of social management, or by swapping the deck chairs on the Titanic. And they often take no thought at all for any checks-and-balances on human greed, corruptibility, vanity, power lust, cruelty, and so on -- aspects of the human persona that are certainly not all he has, but which we all ignore at our extreme peril, as history has shown.

Henry and I both believe in distributing power. That is, we know that big government is extremely dangerous, because it concentrates power in the hands of a few persons or even one person, all of whom are susceptible to the vices of humankind. So we believe that a very limited kind of government...like local governments, directly responsible to the people, or bigger governments strictly limited as to terms, powers, and scope, are feasible. (I dare say Henry's even less enthusiastic about government than I am, and that's saying little...because my own attitude to all government is one of watchful skepticism, at best. And strict accountability measures are always needed for any government.)

I don't expect any perfect governments...or even near perfect ones. I expect flawed ones that will periodically have to be stopped, reigned in, checked, and even replaced when they become defective. But whereas I think Henry tends to disapprove more strongly of the whole idea of governments than I do, I accept that some systems of government are necessary. But they are always flawed. They must be watched, checked, and controlled in the interests of them maintaining of the freedom of the individual, or they quickly gobble that up.

Human nature has good aspects and bad aspects: but it is not to be trusted foolishly. And governments are run by people...of which the same must be said. Government cannot be "fixed." There is no perfect solution. The danger starts when people naively start to imagine there could be one.

The only 'freedoms' that matter are free speech and freedom of the press.

So, the slave who gets to speak freely, mebbe gets to write his unedited, un-censored column in Enslaved Quarterly, well, he's livin' the life of Riley, ain't he?

Life, Liberty, Property.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:16 pm The only 'freedoms' that matter are free speech and freedom of the press.

So, the slave who gets to speak freely, mebbe gets to write his unedited, un-censored column in Enslaved Quarterly, well, he's livin' the life of Riley, ain't he?

Life, Liberty, Property.

Well, and why do we even think "free speech" is guaranteed us? Even more bizarrely, why would we think the "press" had a right to freedom? What's the rationale for that?

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:13 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:04 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:58 pm

I was just about to say you won't get any specifics from Henry but he got in first

His vision is so vague and general it makes a vauum look substantial. His utopia is simply the law of the jungle, which is unworkable because even in the jungle humans lived together in societies. We've just made things a whole lot more comfortable for ourselves. What Henry envisions would only end up as the dictatorship he claims to despise so much.

Veg, you truly don't know what you're talkin' about. I'd correct you but I don't think you want correction (so, I can't see wastin' time).

Instead: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=32w456

Bastiat sez everything I would.

Still no specifics on how your utopia would work, just a lot of boring waffle that has the nerve to bring god-bothering into the equation. Call yourself 'free' when you have a god-daddy to tell you what to do

I'm a deist, not a theist. My God is silent; he left me no holy words or holy men; I have no church.

He gave me a body & soul, a free will, and a moral compass.

And: you didn't read but a pargraph or two of The Law...you got no cause to say diddly about it till you do.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:18 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:16 pm The only 'freedoms' that matter are free speech and freedom of the press.

So, the slave who gets to speak freely, mebbe gets to write his unedited, un-censored column in Enslaved Quarterly, well, he's livin' the life of Riley, ain't he?

Life, Liberty, Property.

Well, and why do we even think "free speech" is guaranteed us? Even more bizarrely, why would we think the "press" had a right to freedom? What's the rationale for that?

Yeah, Veg sez the only rights that matter is bein' able to run off at the mouth and print jibber-jabber.

Accordin' to her, apparently not a one of us should be able to move freely, own stuff, self-defend, start a business, raise a family, etc.

Nope...all that's important, as each of us is herded from place to place, given our various assignments for the day by our overseers, is we can speak freely and report on stuff.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:49 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:19 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:01 am We gotta start lookin' behind the curtain and we best do it now.

OK. You've looked behind the curtain and you've discovered what's really going on. What do you do about it?

Not looking for generalities. What specifically should you, or I, or Veg do about it? Do you really think you can fix it?

Stop complyin' with 'em....not in dribbles and drabs, either.

Civil disobedience.

I'd say wholesale, public, obvious, noncompliance with legislators is about specific as it gets.

No, I will not...no, make me...guns & ammo.

Everything else is strategy & tactic.

And, no, there's no fixin' human nature, nor does it require a fix, but sure as shit we can stop caterin' to our piss-poor aspects, and the chief way to do that is to stop lettin' men rule over men.