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Re: Equity, morality
Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:26 am
by bahman
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:20 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:54 am
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:44 am
So killing a person is going to be an immoral act in the opinion of many people.
Of course. But people have no right to call the murderer guilty. In fact, any individual would do what a murderer does if s/he is in the same circumstances.
We
create rights. So we do have a right to call a murderer guilty, because we created the right to do so.
No, you cannot create rights but impose your view on minorities.
Re: Equity, morality
Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:37 am
by Terrapin Station
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:26 am
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:20 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:54 am
Of course. But people have no right to call the murderer guilty. In fact, any individual would do what a murderer does if s/he is in the same circumstances.
We
create rights. So we do have a right to call a murderer guilty, because we created the right to do so.
No, you cannot create rights but impose your view on minorities.
Rights do not exist aside from us creating them.
Re: Equity, morality
Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:02 am
by Skepdick
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:37 am
Rights do not exist aside from us creating them.
That's less accurate than what bahman is saying.
If rights are created (and they are), they didn't spontaneously appear globally. The institutions to uphold those rights didn't magically pop up, and the minds who embrace those rights didn't magically adopt them.
The society which first thought rights were a good idea imposed it onto the rest.
Re: Equity, morality
Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:59 pm
by bahman
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:37 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:26 am
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:20 am
We
create rights. So we do have a right to call a murderer guilty, because we created the right to do so.
No, you cannot create rights but impose your view on minorities.
Rights do not exist aside from us creating them.
So we have to discuss the whole thing again. But first, does right has anything with morality? Or it is a view that is imposed by the majority because they have power?
Re: Equity, morality
Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:01 pm
by Terrapin Station
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:59 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:37 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:26 am
No, you cannot create rights but impose your view on minorities.
Rights do not exist aside from us creating them.
So we have to discuss the whole thing again.
??
But first, does right has anything with morality?
In most persons opinions, most rights have something to do with morality, sure.
Or it is a view that is imposed by the majority because they have power?
This isn't an alternative to the above. Just as with morality in general, the rights that wind up as social norms and/or that end up codified in law wind up that way via a combination of (a) being common dispositions and/or (b) being the dispositions of people who are in a sufficient position of power/influence in the society in question.
Re: Equity, morality
Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:41 pm
by bahman
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:01 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:59 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:37 am
Rights do not exist aside from us creating them.
So we have to discuss the whole thing again.
??
But first, does right has anything with morality?
In most persons opinions, most rights have something to do with morality, sure.
Even if the majority like to torture or kill a killer?
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:37 am
Or it is a view that is imposed by the majority because they have power?
This isn't an alternative to the above. Just as with morality in general, the rights that wind up as social norms and/or that end up codified in law wind up that way via a combination of (a) being common dispositions and/or (b) being the dispositions of people who are in a sufficient position of power/influence in the society in question.
Even if the majority like to torture or kill a killer?
Re: Equity, morality
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:10 am
by Terrapin Station
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:41 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:01 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:59 pm
So we have to discuss the whole thing again.
??
But first, does right has anything with morality?
In most persons opinions, most rights have something to do with morality, sure.
Even if the majority like to torture or kill a killer?
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:37 am
Or it is a view that is imposed by the majority because they have power?
This isn't an alternative to the above. Just as with morality in general, the rights that wind up as social norms and/or that end up codified in law wind up that way via a combination of (a) being common dispositions and/or (b) being the dispositions of people who are in a sufficient position of power/influence in the society in question.
Even if the majority like to torture or kill a killer?
Yes, of course on both questions.
Re: Equity, morality
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:26 am
by bahman
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:10 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:41 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:01 pm
??
In most persons opinions, most rights have something to do with morality, sure.
Even if the majority like to torture or kill a killer?
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:37 am
This isn't an alternative to the above. Just as with morality in general, the rights that wind up as social norms and/or that end up codified in law wind up that way via a combination of (a) being common dispositions and/or (b) being the dispositions of people who are in a sufficient position of power/influence in the society in question.
Even if the majority like to torture or kill a killer?
Yes, of course on both questions.
So even two different countries that treat killers differently are both moral equally. So whatever. There is nothing to discuss.
Re: Equity, morality
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:50 pm
by Terrapin Station
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:26 am
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:10 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:41 pm
Even if the majority like to torture or kill a killer?
Even if the majority like to torture or kill a killer?
Yes, of course on both questions.
So even two different countries that treat killers differently are both moral equally. So whatever. There is nothing to discuss.
"Equally" in that all approaches are equally moral approaches sure. Again, morality/ethics is simply dispositions about interactive behavior that one considers to be more significant than etiquette. It's not as if only certain dispositions count as morality/ethics. It can be any imaginable disposition. Different people have different dispositions. There are no correct/incorrect, true/false dispositions. And then what we get in societies is the result of all of those different dispositions interacting, where some dispositions will be much more popular than others, some will have the "right" people behind them (influential/powerful people) to wind up as cultural mores or as something codified into law. etc., and that will also vary from culture to culture, society to society. Re rights, that just arises from the idea that some things should be treated as inviolable.
Re: Equity, morality
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:44 pm
by bahman
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:50 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:26 am
So even two different countries that treat killers differently are both moral equally. So whatever. There is nothing to discuss.
"Equally" in that all approaches are equally moral approaches sure. Again, morality/ethics is simply dispositions about interactive behavior that one considers to be more significant than etiquette. It's not as if only certain dispositions count as morality/ethics. It can be any imaginable disposition. Different people have different dispositions. There are no correct/incorrect, true/false dispositions. And then what we get in societies is the result of all of those different dispositions interacting, where some dispositions will be much more popular than others, some will have the "right" people behind them (influential/powerful people) to wind up as cultural mores or as something codified into law. etc., and that will also vary from culture to culture, society to society. Re rights, that just arises from the idea that some things should be treated as inviolable.
Indifference. It is about what the majority feels, even if the good feeling is about killing each other to have joy, revenge, etc. There is no room left to discuss anything logical.
Re: Equity, morality
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:18 pm
by Terrapin Station
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:44 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:50 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:26 am
So even two different countries that treat killers differently are both moral equally. So whatever. There is nothing to discuss.
"Equally" in that all approaches are equally moral approaches sure. Again, morality/ethics is simply dispositions about interactive behavior that one considers to be more significant than etiquette. It's not as if only certain dispositions count as morality/ethics. It can be any imaginable disposition. Different people have different dispositions. There are no correct/incorrect, true/false dispositions. And then what we get in societies is the result of all of those different dispositions interacting, where some dispositions will be much more popular than others, some will have the "right" people behind them (influential/powerful people) to wind up as cultural mores or as something codified into law. etc., and that will also vary from culture to culture, society to society. Re rights, that just arises from the idea that some things should be treated as inviolable.
Indifference. It is about what the majority feels, even if the good feeling is about killing each other to have joy, revenge, etc. There is no room left to discuss anything logical.
Morality is about what individuals feel. What gets codified into cultural or legal norms is what influential/powerful people are able to establish, whether we're talking about a majority or not.
Re: Equity, morality
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:23 pm
by bahman
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:18 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:44 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:50 pm
"Equally" in that all approaches are equally moral approaches sure. Again, morality/ethics is simply dispositions about interactive behavior that one considers to be more significant than etiquette. It's not as if only certain dispositions count as morality/ethics. It can be any imaginable disposition. Different people have different dispositions. There are no correct/incorrect, true/false dispositions. And then what we get in societies is the result of all of those different dispositions interacting, where some dispositions will be much more popular than others, some will have the "right" people behind them (influential/powerful people) to wind up as cultural mores or as something codified into law. etc., and that will also vary from culture to culture, society to society. Re rights, that just arises from the idea that some things should be treated as inviolable.
Indifference. It is about what the majority feels, even if the good feeling is about killing each other to have joy, revenge, etc. There is no room left to discuss anything logical.
Morality is about what individuals feel. What gets codified into cultural or legal norms is what influential/powerful people are able to establish, whether we're talking about a majority or not.
I don't think so. Look at the history of humanity and all the mess that we created, due to feeling, belief, etc.
Re: Equity, morality
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:27 pm
by Terrapin Station
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:23 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:18 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:44 pm
Indifference. It is about what the majority feels, even if the good feeling is about killing each other to have joy, revenge, etc. There is no room left to discuss anything logical.
Morality is about what individuals feel. What gets codified into cultural or legal norms is what influential/powerful people are able to establish, whether we're talking about a majority or not.
I don't think so. Look at the history of humanity and all the mess that we created, due to feeling, belief, etc.
What evidence would you have that morality is something other than what I said?
Re: Equity, morality
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:41 pm
by bahman
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:27 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:23 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:18 pm
Morality is about what individuals feel. What gets codified into cultural or legal norms is what influential/powerful people are able to establish, whether we're talking about a majority or not.
I don't think so. Look at the history of humanity and all the mess that we created, due to feeling, belief, etc.
What evidence would you have that morality is something other than what I said?
Well, if morality is just about feeling then why bother and categorized it as a different thing. Just feeling. Where is the position of rational thinking in life? Nothing?
Re: Equity, morality
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:45 pm
by Terrapin Station
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:41 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:27 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:23 pm
I don't think so. Look at the history of humanity and all the mess that we created, due to feeling, belief, etc.
What evidence would you have that morality is something other than what I said?
Well, if morality is just about feeling then why bother and categorized it as a different thing. Just feeling. Where is the position of rational thinking in life? Nothing?
So no evidence then, right?