Philosophy Now Forum

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:16 pm Where was your hero Trump?
He fucked off and cowered in safety whilst his supporters died.

My guess he was in the White House, protected by bodyguards from Loons.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:16 pm No i'm saying he did his job. The others probably turned like cowards and avoided the bullets leaving the woman injured.

The woman died.

Three others died but not from bullets.

Probably from heart attacks.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:28 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:51 am I can't agree...it was a bone-headed move...

I'm not saying it made sense. I'm not saying it will achieve anything. I'm saying the Democrats are the last people in the world with any justification to throw up their hands in horror and scream, "What has happened to the rule of law?" They burned the rule of law to the ground, and now they are surprised that mayhem has broken out? They have no right to put one toe on the high ground, let alone a foot.

Heh. You could surf to Hawaii on the waves of hypocrisy emanating from the Dems today.

you're right, but it doesn't matter

watched the usual suspects this morning -- cnn, msnbc, hln, fox -- and I heard universal condemnation of the wash. rioters as insurrectionists, universal blame placed on ORANGE MAN as inciter and coup-meister

there was no mention of all the other folks who peaceably assembled in wash., who weren't trespassin' and breakin' windows

and: not a soul on cnn, msnbc, hln, or fox, pointed out the hypocrisy of favorably reportin' on the months of blm/antia rioting, or the hypocrisy of not layin' blame on local, state, and federal politicians who encouraged those months of rioting

as I say: the whole endeavor was bone-headed...the peaceful were never gonna get fair press, no matter what...it was a feel good moment that blew up in their faces...they accomplished nuthin' except givin' the other side ammo to use

and, in the end, the results were still certified in the houseplant's favor

Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:38 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:15 am to expand a bit: the majority who went to wash. went to protest, as in peacefully assemble, and had nuthin' to do with the riotous nonsense...but, the peaceable effort of those folks was more than overshadowed by the rioters (and that's what they are)

as for the protesters: it was a wasted effort from the start, even without the rioters messin' things up...they weren't gonna get fair coverage no matter what

Isn't that the exact same narrative of the peaceable effort of the BLM folk?

Always overshadowed by the violent individuals.

the difference, of course, is in the reportin'

blm/antifa got nuthin' but good press no matter how many federal buildings were occupied and trashed, no matter how many passersby were harassed or injuried, no matter how many businesses looted or burned; and those local, state, and federal officials who looked only to placate or encourage blm/antifa were never criticized or held responsible

the very stupid and short-sighted folks who made a ruckus in wash. yesterday, despite bein' no where near as destructive as blm/antifa, as I say, are universally bein' painted as insurrectionists, ORANGE MAN is bein' condemned as coup-meister, and all the peaceable assemblers are not even part of the story

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:40 pm the difference, of course, is in the reportin'

blm/antifa got nuthin' but good press no matter how many federal buildings were occupied and trashed

They did? So how do you know that they trashed buildings and burned down businesses if nobody reported on it?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:40 pm , no matter how many passersby were harassed or injuried, no matter how many businesses looted or burned; and those local, state, and federal officials who looked only to placate or encourage blm/antifa were never criticized or held responsible

It's a fair ask to hold people responsible. Perhaps it's a little tricky when you have a grassroots movement (one without any centralized leadership structures), but indeed - somebody should be held responsible.

So who should be held responsible for the looting of Capitol Hill?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:40 pm and all the peaceable assemblers are not even part of the story

Yeah... that's the bit that got left out when BLM had valid concerns too.

Why are you only pointing it out now?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:41 am We've seen this movie a thousand times before.

The critics of the 2016-2020 protests become the apologists of the 2020-2024 protests.

It's bad when "they" do it.
It's not as bad when "we" do it.
The media is overhyping it.
The antagonists did it.

Left mobs. Right mobs. Still just mobs with predictable narratives.

nope...as I say, the narrative among the usual suspects is universal condemnation, of the rioters, of ORANGE MAN, with absolutely no mention of the peaceable assemblers, or notice of the disparity in the months of reportin' of antifa/blm and the reportin' goin' on today

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:50 pm nope...as I say, the narrative among the usual suspects is universal condemnation, of the rioters, of ORANGE MAN, with absolutely no mention of the peaceable assemblers, or notice of the disparity in the months of reportin' of antifa/blm and the reportin' goin' on today

You mean like the universal condemnation of BLM with absolutely no mention of the peaceable assemblers who actually had valid concerns.

I mean, it's not like the pockets of violence were used to hijack any reasonable conversation and delegitimise the entire movement.

Oh... Wait.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:45 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:40 pm the difference, of course, is in the reportin'

blm/antifa got nuthin' but good press no matter how many federal buildings were occupied and trashed

*They did? So how do you know that they trashed buildings and burned down businesses if nobody reported on it?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:40 pm , no matter how many passersby were harassed or injuried, no matter how many businesses looted or burned; and those local, state, and federal officials who looked only to placate or encourage blm/antifa were never criticized or held responsible

It's a fair ask to hold people responsible. Perhaps it's a little tricky when you have a grassroots movement (one without any centralized leadership structures), but indeed - somebody should be held responsible.

**So who should be held responsible for the looting of Capitol Hill?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:40 pm and all the peaceable assemblers are not even part of the story

***Yeah... that's the bit that got left out when BLM had valid concerns too.

****Why are you only pointing it out now?

*cuz while national and global outlets reported favorably, when they bothered to report at all, local outlets were there documentin' and then postin' footage and local reportin' on their sites, sites anyone can access if they have a mind to

**the folks who actually rioted, of course

***but that's not true...msnbc, cnn, hln, bbc, bbc america, the ny times, and on and on only reported favorably...fox was critical but always was quick to give time to the more peace-minded...overall, blm/antifa had/have overwhelmingly positive coverage

****I'm not sure what you're askin'

Walker wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:28 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:16 pm No i'm saying he did his job. The others probably turned like cowards and avoided the bullets leaving the woman injured.

The woman died.

Three others died but not from bullets.

Probably from heart attacks.

Do you agree they would all probably be alive today if Trump had not sent them on a wild goose chase?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:02 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:50 pm nope...as I say, the narrative among the usual suspects is universal condemnation, of the rioters, of ORANGE MAN, with absolutely no mention of the peaceable assemblers, or notice of the disparity in the months of reportin' of antifa/blm and the reportin' goin' on today

You mean like the universal condemnation of BLM with absolutely no mention of the peaceable assemblers who actually had valid concerns.

I mean, it's not like the pockets of violence were used to hijack any reasonable conversation and delegitimise the entire movement.

Oh... Wait.

there was no universal condemnation of blm/antifa and there still isn't

anyway: my point stands

goin' to wash. to peaceably assemble was bone-headed

if there had been only peaceful assembly, the reportin' woulda been minimal, tepid, and offered as a 30 second blip before gettin' on with the much more important story of kim kardassian's up-comin' divorce

with riotin' (either by ORANGE MAN supporters or masqueraders) the story is nuthin' but them debbil insurrectionists and that old instigator, ORANGE MAN, and the peaceful assemblers are not even a sparrowfart on the obit page

ORANGE MAN folk won nuthin' yesterday...they never could...they shoulda stayed home

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:11 pmthere was no universal condemnation of blm/antifa and there still isn't

Don't hold your breath. No issue ever gets universal condemnation, anymore than another gets universal praise. Some people believe that black people have as much right not to have their neck knelt on until they die as white people do, some don't. Some people believe that all members of society should have a say in how to run their lives, some don't. Some people think that if they don't get their way they can ignore anyone who disagrees with them, some don't. In democracies, even America, there are channels who voice all of those opinions.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:28 pm ...and, in the end, the results were still certified in the houseplant's favor

Well, here's the thing: when you destroy the mechanisms of transparency in order to get a win, when you approve vandalism and violence in order to take political advantage, when you flout the rule of law, undermine civil authority, speak falsehoods and cover up corruption in order to keep power, what you really do is prepare the knife for your own back. For behind you, in your own ranks and where you are not looking, are other people with other agendas; and you've now formed the mechanisms they will use when they want to supplant you and take the agenda their way.

So I would think that this is a truly pyrrhic victory. I believe time will shortly reveal how utterly mad and short-sighted the "winners" have been. But there will be no recourse for them, because they've already destroyed the laws and procedures that otherwise might have protected them.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:09 pm
Do you agree they would all probably be alive today if Trump had not sent them on a wild goose chase?

Absolutely not. Now you’re veering into fantasy.

Whatever happens has to happen.
Whatever happened had to have happened.

Do you want to cause an inter-dimensional rift in the time space continuum?
How irresponsible.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:27 pm...they shoulda stayed home

Photographs around the White House show a lot more people than were around the Capitol, in my estimation. It was solid humanity from the ellipse to past the Washington Monument, I know the walk.

I've heard reports on the radio from people who were there, that many turned off the walk before they got to the Dome. It's a fair distance for old timers, probably many of them with old injuries scarred from putting life on the line for their country, and other things that happen over a long life. Other people said they sensed danger early in the long hike, heard rumblings from strangers around them, and so veered off and never made it.

Plus, there's a lot of bus parking around the perimeter of the mall, between the White House and the Dome.

Plus, people really don't walk the sidewalks of Washington after dark anymore. Certainly not into the neighborhoods southeast of the Capitol.

Plus, people like to beat the traffic.

All that points to a lot fewer people at the Dome of trouble than were at the White House.

Those who went the distance: I'd estimate 100-200 of them were trouble makers, from news of arrests, and videos of inside and outside ... maybe 50 less.