Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:35 pm**

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:32 am
attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:07 am
gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:32 am ..nothing is predetermined, "freewill" for men is conserved, and "god" knows possible futures men can take.
Even if that were the case, it would result in God NOT knowing WHICH of the possible futures a man WILL take.
not so!!!!!!!

your God know all possible futures!

Even if that were the case, it would result in God NOT knowing WHICH of the possible futures a man WILL take.

I re-read your above, and you might be right here.

food for thought on that one. so if man has freewill and your god knows all the actions a man can take, if your god allows man freewill he cannot know which action said man will take (though knows all outcomes knowing all possible futures)

so your God cant be omniscient - if he allows man free action (or even a beetle free action).

what can i say, i offer no answer on this one, i'm just a dumb athiest.

thanks for reply nontheless. how is Australia these days, all the fires are overwith from a few months ago?

This omniscience thing is really something that atheists like to wave around, possibly for the 'gotcha' factor.

OK. Let me run with it. Omniscience - ALL knowing.

"MY" God then according to atheists, and some theists HAS to be OMNISCIENT ...bla bla.

So.

I'll agree. My God is OMNISCIENT. IT KNOWS EVERYTHING. The caveat here though is that the FUTURE DOES NOT EXIST. Ergo, MY God KNOWS EVERYTHING, since things that DON'T exist are immaterial to OMNISCIENCE.

PS. The land of Oz is fine, we are back to spring and the inevitable fires are about to return.

Posted: **Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:34 pm**

uwot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:11 am
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:17 pm
Yours Truly wrote: No one is in any danger from your god Mr Can, for the same reason that no one is in any danger from you.
If only that were true.

The religious and their immoral policies continue to plague us.
It's not a big problem in Europe. The Middle East is fucked because of it, and now a scarily large minority of Americans are determined to follow suit.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:17 pmOh well. At least the right wing fascist loony squad is shrinking.
If only that were true.

??

Women and gays not being given equal right in Europe is ongoing, depending on the country.

Even the Queen of England, the head of their church, cannot be a Bishop in her own church.

Feminism has won, but the less astute people do not recognize that fact yet.

Regards
DL

Posted: **Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:39 pm**

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:23 pm It is obvious that Jesus as portrayed by Gospel had Free Will; Jesus contended against temptation and won. This story depends upon the theme of Free Will that is what the story is all about: of his own free will Jesus chose God .

Where do you see Jesus say he is doing his will?

I see where he says he is doing his Father's will.

Note how he was chosen and did not volunteer.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Whoever's will formulated substitutional punishment, --- is a satanic entity, --- be that Yahweh or Jesus.

Regards
DL

Posted: **Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:07 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:53 pm That we can ask the question, that we can puzzle about it and debate it answers the question in any reaonable mind. But actually, the question is never, "Does the Son of God have free will." Of course He does. It's "What have you done with yours?"

"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

Here's the thing: to play around with questions of free will is a luxury. It's even sometimes a corrupt luxury, because we do it in a dilatory and unserious way, just for fun. But there are some things it's really not smart to play around with, and giving children dynamite pales in comparison to the folly of talking about the Judgment in a careless, callous way.

We will all know the answer to both questions, one day. Of that, I am absolutely certain. We will know what the will of God was, and we will know what we did with our own free will. And of all things, it was never, never an intellectual game.

I think we will learn that God's will, is fiction.

But if Yahweh is the judge you follow, tell us why you would trust his judgement, or even accept it, --- when it comes from a genocidal son murdering p**** of a judge?

Regards
DL

Posted: **Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:18 pm**

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:39 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:23 pm It is obvious that Jesus as portrayed by Gospel had Free Will; Jesus contended against temptation and won. This story depends upon the theme of Free Will that is what the story is all about: of his own free will Jesus chose God .
Where do you see Jesus say he is doing his will?

I see where he says he is doing his Father's will.

Note how he was chosen and did not volunteer.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Whoever's will formulated substitutional punishment, --- is a satanic entity, --- be that Yahweh or Jesus.

Regards
DL

To be a Biblical scholar is not easy and takes specialist expertise. I am not an expert but have learned a few things to look out for when interpreting The Bible as literature.

Some Biblical authors and editors wrote polemics. Others wrote devotional material which was often also polemical. Isolating the history apart from the devotional and political polemics is really an expert's job, a job for a trained historian. History as a modern academic discipline is not what history was in past ages. "Satanic entity" is probably not a real thing.

As philosophers we don't presume anything including that there is a deity that chooses events.

Posted: **Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:40 pm**

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:18 pm
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:39 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:23 pm It is obvious that Jesus as portrayed by Gospel had Free Will; Jesus contended against temptation and won. This story depends upon the theme of Free Will that is what the story is all about: of his own free will Jesus chose God .
Where do you see Jesus say he is doing his will?

I see where he says he is doing his Father's will.

Note how he was chosen and did not volunteer.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Whoever's will formulated substitutional punishment, --- is a satanic entity, --- be that Yahweh or Jesus.

Regards
DL
To be a Biblical scholar is not easy and takes specialist expertise. I am not an expert but have learned a few things to look out for when interpreting The Bible as literature.

Some Biblical authors and editors wrote polemics. Others wrote devotional material which was often also polemical. Isolating the history apart from the devotional and political polemics is really an expert's job, a job for a trained historian. History as a modern academic discipline is not what history was in past ages. "Satanic entity" is probably not a real thing.

As philosophers we don't presume anything including that there is a deity that chooses events.

I agree with much of this, that is why I focus on morals, that can have an end game, and not the myth and supernatural garbage that never can have an end game.

Such issues are almost worthless, as nothing can be known of the supernatural, except that it is not the brightest option in ways of thinking.

Logos is superior to mythos.

You talk of when Jesus overcame temptation, but ignore where he failed to do so.

Call whatever you read whatever you like, but stop ignoring what you do not like or disagrees with you.

Regards
DL

Posted: **Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:46 pm**

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:40 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:18 pm
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:39 pm

Where do you see Jesus say he is doing his will?

I see where he says he is doing his Father's will.

Note how he was chosen and did not volunteer.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Whoever's will formulated substitutional punishment, --- is a satanic entity, --- be that Yahweh or Jesus.

Regards
DL
To be a Biblical scholar is not easy and takes specialist expertise. I am not an expert but have learned a few things to look out for when interpreting The Bible as literature.

Some Biblical authors and editors wrote polemics. Others wrote devotional material which was often also polemical. Isolating the history apart from the devotional and political polemics is really an expert's job, a job for a trained historian. History as a modern academic discipline is not what history was in past ages. "Satanic entity" is probably not a real thing.

As philosophers we don't presume anything including that there is a deity that chooses events.
I agree with much of this, that is why I focus on morals, that can have an end game, and not the myth and supernatural garbage that never can have an end game.

Such issues are almost worthless, as nothing can be known of the supernatural, except that it is not the brightest option in ways of thinking.

Logos is superior to mythos.

You talk of when Jesus overcame temptation, but ignore where he failed to do so.

Call whatever you read whatever you like, but stop ignoring what you do not like or disagrees with you.

Regards
DL

Maybe I did ignore something or other in the Gospels. I probably did. If you bring it to my attention I might discuss it with you.

Posted: **Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:28 pm**

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:46 pm
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:40 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:18 pm
To be a Biblical scholar is not easy and takes specialist expertise. I am not an expert but have learned a few things to look out for when interpreting The Bible as literature.

Some Biblical authors and editors wrote polemics. Others wrote devotional material which was often also polemical. Isolating the history apart from the devotional and political polemics is really an expert's job, a job for a trained historian. History as a modern academic discipline is not what history was in past ages. "Satanic entity" is probably not a real thing.

As philosophers we don't presume anything including that there is a deity that chooses events.
I agree with much of this, that is why I focus on morals, that can have an end game, and not the myth and supernatural garbage that never can have an end game.

Such issues are almost worthless, as nothing can be known of the supernatural, except that it is not the brightest option in ways of thinking.

Logos is superior to mythos.

You talk of when Jesus overcame temptation, but ignore where he failed to do so.

Call whatever you read whatever you like, but stop ignoring what you do not like or disagrees with you.

Regards
DL
Maybe I did ignore something or other in the Gospels. I probably did. If you bring it to my attention I might discuss it with you.

You see Jesus as a nice guy, while ignoring his genocidal nature and the Armageddon he promised.

He is a smidge more moral than that Yahweh p****, but not much better.

Why do you see an evil entity like the genocidal Jesus as good?

There is a good Gnostic Christian Jesus in the bible, but you do not seem to know that one. Ypu seem to know the Roman constructed Jesus.

Regards
DL

Posted: **Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:17 am**

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:07 pm I think we will learn that God's will, is fiction.

You're staking your soul on it. That's up to you. I wouldn't. But it's your soul.

Posted: **Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:44 am**

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:38 am
gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:40 am

Jesus was not God incarnate;

He was in Gospel of John, and Jesus = christ BTW in that work (and the other 3 BTW - though the other 3 do not claim christ was god)

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am Christ was a mythical man who was God incarnate.
per John Christ is YHWH.

read its preamble madam.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am Jesus was quasi historical whereas Christ is a cultural myth.
yes, and irrelevant.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:59 am Christians are usually expected to believe that Jesus was Christ and vice versa.
agreed, thanks for you for being a wise woman. and you are right per all the 50+ books of the "Bible" were writen for the audience of that time. events were happening, and the author and his audience were a part of that time, and the author's work was for his audience of that time, to explain events of that time. yes some works are "Timeless" and so can be applied for modern audiences (but the author wrote to his audience 200 yrs ago).

for the last 30 yrs, from reading the "bible" i use this for objective critic of the "bible" - i.e. like Job - written after 300 yrs of Persian rule over Israel, when Zarababbel was supposed to have freed them from bondage (Zachariah was written 300 yr prior to Job and offered this promise of libeeration, it did not deliver, so thier was a demand for a person to explain why the promise was not delivered - author of Job did not provide the easy explaination (ie, goy is evil - so do not expect liberation/or the inverse, god will provide liberation next year) - instead he offered the non-anwser, do not question God, you are all ants compared to him, so buck up and bare it.

thanks for reply madam, and thanks for your wisdom, and honest/sensitive replies - vs trollish thuggery and foolishness (social media is all of the latter and why i never joined facefk nor am a twit, and why i am here instead).

You, as i hope i too do too, show the importance of this Forum - for non-troll folks to discuss matters.

i thank you Madam.

Posted: **Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:01 am**

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:35 pm
gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:32 am
attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:07 am
Even if that were the case, it would result in God NOT knowing WHICH of the possible futures a man WILL take.
not so!!!!!!!

your God know all possible futures!

Even if that were the case, it would result in God NOT knowing WHICH of the possible futures a man WILL take.

I re-read your above, and you might be right here.

food for thought on that one. so if man has freewill and your god knows all the actions a man can take, if your god allows man freewill he cannot know which action said man will take (though knows all outcomes knowing all possible futures)

so your God cant be omniscient - if he allows man free action (or even a beetle free action).

what can i say, i offer no answer on this one, i'm just a dumb athiest.

thanks for reply nontheless. how is Australia these days, all the fires are overwith from a few months ago?
This omniscience thing is really something that atheists like to wave around, possibly for the 'gotcha' factor.

OK. Let me run with it. Omniscience - ALL knowing.

"MY" God then according to atheists, and some theists HAS to be OMNISCIENT ...bla bla.

So.

I'll agree. My God is OMNISCIENT. IT KNOWS EVERYTHING. The caveat here though is that the FUTURE DOES NOT EXIST. Ergo, MY God KNOWS EVERYTHING, since things that DON'T exist are immaterial to OMNISCIENCE.

PS. The land of Oz is fine, we are back to spring and the inevitable fires are about to return.

not sure i follow your veiw of your god, you saying he does not know all things? i.e. the future?

I'm not into the whole god/no god debate - it bore the shit out of me, nor to i like militant evangelicals or athiests.

i'm just a dumb silent athiest, but here to understand - YOUr - view of your God, in order to learn something here.

thanks for reply, and the update on OZ, one of my fav radio stations is NZ's Radioactive.fm - wellington, where via my "smartphone" (which i use only a a radio -via tune-in (been a fan of internet radio, and have had 4 table top - and 1 hifi tuner too - Grace brand rules in internet radio BTW - since 2009) - since about a yr ago i have my free (T-mobile new costomer - so phone is free (technically it is a moterola G7 Galaxy - not sold in America - outside of T-mobile's branding of) smartphone bolted to my dashboard, serving as a better XM Radio - not the 200 channels that service offers, but the 20,000 channels internet radio - via Tune-in offers).

anyway, thanks for reply, and would like to understand your view of your god better if you are willing to offer it.

thanks Sir.

Posted: **Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:04 am**

gaffo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:01 am
attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:35 pm
gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:32 am
not so!!!!!!!

your God know all possible futures!

Even if that were the case, it would result in God NOT knowing WHICH of the possible futures a man WILL take.

I re-read your above, and you might be right here.

food for thought on that one. so if man has freewill and your god knows all the actions a man can take, if your god allows man freewill he cannot know which action said man will take (though knows all outcomes knowing all possible futures)

so your God cant be omniscient - if he allows man free action (or even a beetle free action).

what can i say, i offer no answer on this one, i'm just a dumb athiest.

thanks for reply nontheless. how is Australia these days, all the fires are overwith from a few months ago?
This omniscience thing is really something that atheists like to wave around, possibly for the 'gotcha' factor.

OK. Let me run with it. Omniscience - ALL knowing.

"MY" God then according to atheists, and some theists HAS to be OMNISCIENT ...bla bla.

So.

I'll agree. My God is OMNISCIENT. IT KNOWS EVERYTHING. The caveat here though is that the FUTURE DOES NOT EXIST. Ergo, MY God KNOWS EVERYTHING, since things that DON'T exist are immaterial to OMNISCIENCE.

PS. The land of Oz is fine, we are back to spring and the inevitable fires are about to return.
not sure i follow your veiw of your god, you saying he does not know all things? i.e. the future?

I am stating God does not know the future. (it certainly can CAUSE events to a occur if it wishes a desired future.)

What 'things' exist in the future gaffo? Things that exist are only in the present.

I consider you the bible expert around here..where in the bible does it state that God knows ALL the future?

gaffo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:01 amI'm not into the whole god/no god debate - it bore the shit out of me, nor to i like militant evangelicals or athiests.

i'm just a dumb silent athiest, but here to understand - YOUr - view of your God, in order to learn something here.

No, you are not dumb - your English is shit but generally comprehensible

gaffo wrote: thanks for reply, and the update on OZ, one of my fav radio stations is NZ's Radioactive.fm - wellington, where via my "smartphone" (which i use only a a radio -via tune-in (been a fan of internet radio, and have had 4 table top - and 1 hifi tuner too - Grace brand rules in internet radio BTW - since 2009) - since about a yr ago i have my free (T-mobile new costomer - so phone is free (technically it is a moterola G7 Galaxy - not sold in America - outside of T-mobile's branding of) smartphone bolted to my dashboard, serving as a better XM Radio - not the 200 channels that service offers, but the 20,000 channels internet radio - via Tune-in offers).

anyway, thanks for reply, and would like to understand your view of your god better if you are willing to offer it.

thanks Sir.

Certainly gaffo - I'm planning to start a thread in the near future to detail these things - maybe save it for then.

I'll certainly have a look at some of the internet radio stuff - I like tuning in to some UK radio - makes me a tad home sick tho.

What is on Radioactive FM in NZ that you like? - maybe i'll get into it too

Posted: **Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:53 am**

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:04 am
gaffo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:01 am
attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:35 pm

This omniscience thing is really something that atheists like to wave around, possibly for the 'gotcha' factor.

OK. Let me run with it. Omniscience - ALL knowing.

"MY" God then according to atheists, and some theists HAS to be OMNISCIENT ...bla bla.

So.

I'll agree. My God is OMNISCIENT. IT KNOWS EVERYTHING. The caveat here though is that the FUTURE DOES NOT EXIST. Ergo, MY God KNOWS EVERYTHING, since things that DON'T exist are immaterial to OMNISCIENCE.

PS. The land of Oz is fine, we are back to spring and the inevitable fires are about to return.
not sure i follow your veiw of your god, you saying he does not know all things? i.e. the future?
I am stating God does not know the future. (it certainly can CAUSE events to a occur if it wishes a desired future.)

What 'things' exist in the future gaffo? Things that exist are only in the present.

ok, but affirming you and i do not know the future, to expand that to your God not know it also, implies he is not all knowing in my mind and so limited. There is not madate that God most be unlimited (just never heard that view from any Christian - until now), many other archaic religions had limited panteons in power. the olympic gods/etc. each god usually had a specalty, but not much more.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:04 am I consider you the bible expert around here

thanks for the complement, i always like your bible for some reason - more the Ot than NT - for some reason. not sure why though, being an Athiest. just always have had an interest.

my knowledge is good, but not as good as i would like - mane problem is my memory has allways been bad, so i forget the wisdom i find in your book and forget it and the details of things over time.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:04 am ..where in the bible does it state that God knows ALL the future?

explicitly? no, but it is implied in premaple of Gospel of John "in the begining......." and in The Apocalyse "Christ is the Alpha and Omega"

Book of Daniel is all about prophesy - and many Christians point to it to show God knows the future, but sadly that work was written after most of the accounts it claims were future ones to occur, and the last part - where it actually predicts future events, fails historically.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:04 am No, you are not dumb - your English is shit but generally comprehensible

sadly i suffer from dyslexia, i handicap which limited my ego in my youth and still leaves psychic scars of lowish self esteem.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:04 am Certainly gaffo - I'm planning to start a thread in the near future to detail these things - maybe save it for then.

I'll certainly have a look at some of the internet radio stuff - I like tuning in to some UK radio - makes me a tad home sick tho.

What is on Radioactive FM in NZ that you like? - maybe i'll get into it too

I look forward to your thread on these topics.

as for "radioactive.fm" its just a college low power radio station from Wellington - plays "general" stuff - all sorts of stuff - mostly NZ artists (when they play Rap (i hate Rap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) - i turn the dial, until when they play some other form of music.

I've been a fan of Radiodramas since 20 yrs ago when i discovered them via the old internet Usenet newgroups ("binaries") - i download thousands of shows from that time - all on CDrs (stacks and stacks of). great shows like the 1950's X-Minus One, dimension X, the south african 60's show Beyond Midnight (Micheal McCabe was the creative genious), newer shows like Canada's 1980's nighfall, and the little known readings via University of Wissconson's Micheal Hanson's 1970's Mindwebs (all of these are now on "The Internet Archive"- to download or listen to.

via my smartphone, via "tune-in" i have access to 20 or so OTR (oldtime radio) stations, like Rocket Radios' "Science Fiction and Supernatural Channel (out of London), Roswell Radio (audio stream of radiodrama from the Roswell UFO museam in New Mexico), and of course the UK 1940's station (English audio channel with 40's music (I like 40's era music - Vera Lynn (RIP - died only last summer at 104 i think), Glem Miller/etc....

i like late 60's rock, and 90's alternative rock too - have found a few stations, but not ones i like fully, still looking for better one for those two genres.

thanks for reply!

PS - it saddens me that Radiodramas have all died out - even Canada and Britian seem to have pulled the plug. people today just no longer have the attention span to simply - tune out, and close the eyes and sit back and listen to a 1/2 hour story.

same reason all the movies i like are 30 yrs old or older, and why all the movies i like are "boring" to all others - including my friends (its lonely liking movies that other find boring, and hating the hyper after - low character dev (always pushing some identity politics/political correct crap too) shit movies all others rave about now and i hate- no long bother to watch).

oh well.

Posted: **Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:10 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:17 am
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:07 pm I think we will learn that God's will, is fiction.
You're staking your soul on it. That's up to you. I wouldn't. But it's your soul.

Only a fool will think adoring a genocidal p**** of a god will get him into heaven.

You are letting your fear corrupt your moral sense.

Grow to manhood and stop being a moral coward. Call evil evil.

Regards
DL

Posted: **Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:19 pm**

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:10 pm You are letting your fear corrupt your moral sense.

Is that so? Well, I guess you and I will see.

Think on it carefully. I will say no more to you about it. The choice shall be yours.

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