Philosophy Now Forum

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 6:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 6:44 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 6:37 pm
You mean "show" you like the way you asked Sculptor...

Yep. Exactly that way.

If what I say is true, there's no "distortion." You claim "distortion": I just want to see if you have any idea what you're talking about.

I already showed you. You keep distorting what I say...

Cop out. Firstly, I quoted you verbatim, in green, not "distorted". But secondly, the "distortion" of which you accused me was misrepresenting the will of the "god" you imagine I believe in. So it's that "distortion" I wanted to see you justify.

What do people choose their beliefs from? What they're exposed to, right? What if they're only exposed to a certain kind of theism? Are they responsible for that?

the questions assume folks are lumps who don't go lookin' for answers on their own

if that were the case: I'd be catholic today: I wasn't exposed to anything else

not bein' a lump, and not bein' particularly impressed by catholicism: I went lookin'

so -- yeah -- a person is responsible for what he believes

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 6:57 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 6:46 pm What do people choose their beliefs from? What they're exposed to, right?

"Exposed"? It depends on what you mean by "exposed." Can one be "exposed" by one's conscience? Is not everyone "exposed" to the natural world? Could not the Supreme Being so arrange that all who would respond would be "exposed" to what they needed to know? There are many ways this can happen other than "culture" or being "born into" some belief.

Is there a correct path according to your god?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:05 pm What do people choose their beliefs from? What they're exposed to, right? What if they're only exposed to a certain kind of theism? Are they responsible for that?

the questions assume folks are lumps who don't go lookin' for answers on their own

if that were the case: I'd be catholic today: I wasn't exposed to anything else

not bein' a lump, and not bein' particularly impressed by catholicism: I went lookin'

so -- yeah -- a person is responsible for what he believes

What about a child, Henry? What about someone of a tight-knit and/or isolated religious community or tribe? How are they to "go lookin'"? Are they responsible for what they believe based on what they're taught/told?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:57 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:48 pm What's transferrable, though is that God is clearly no lover of rebels, and that Christians have a duty to respect both secular authorities, even those unsympathetic, as the caesars were, and paternal/maternal authority as well. Under all ordinary circumstances, human authorities are to be respected and obeyed -- save when their demands come into conflict with one's relationship with God, which is always primary.

Explain why you think I'm wrong.

I do not understand your question. Have you had a brain fugue?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:11 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:05 pm What do people choose their beliefs from? What they're exposed to, right? What if they're only exposed to a certain kind of theism? Are they responsible for that?

the questions assume folks are lumps who don't go lookin' for answers on their own

if that were the case: I'd be catholic today: I wasn't exposed to anything else

not bein' a lump, and not bein' particularly impressed by catholicism: I went lookin'

so -- yeah -- a person is responsible for what he believes

What about a child, Henry? What about someone of a tight-knit and/or isolated religious community or tribe? How are they to "go lookin'"? Are they responsible for what they believe based on what they're taught/told?

I was a child in a rural town: I grew up (and aren't we talkin' about adults here, or did I miss sumthin'?)

self-responsibility comes with maturity which generally comes with growin' up

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 6:59 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 6:52 pm I already showed you. You keep distorting what I say...

Cop out. Firstly, I quoted you verbatim, in green, not "distorted". But secondly, the "distortion" of which you accused me was misrepresenting the will of the "god" you imagine I believe in. So it's that "distortion" I wanted to see you justify.

You distort the meaning of what I said: "Do you think your god cares what theists believe?"

I'm not claiming anything about the god you claim to believe in. I'm simply asking you what you think about your god.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:08 pm
Is there a correct path according to your god?

??? Of course.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:23 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:11 pm What about a child, Henry? What about someone of a tight-knit and/or isolated religious community or tribe? How are they to "go lookin'"? Are they responsible for what they believe based on what they're taught/told?

I was a child in a rural town: I grew up (and aren't we talkin' about adults here, or did I miss sumthin'?)

self-responsibility comes with maturity which generally comes with growin' up

The question is focused on whether people are responsible for something that they have no clear choice about. That can apply to all ages and circumstances. People can be brainwashed into certain systems of thinking -- you should know this is true because you constantly harp on that politically!!! So it's perfectly reasonable to consider that the same is true of theist beliefs. Therefore, we can reasonably ask any theist if their god would hold such people responsible (and reward or punish them)? People who die young. People who die never having any exposure beyond certain ideas. It is a reality. Not everyone has the same influences or opportunities in their lives. How does that impact a person's "rightness" according to theism?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:37 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:08 pm Is there a correct path according to your god?

??? Of course.

And there are correct paths according to the gods of other belief systems which are in conflict with yours, yes? So if, as you suggest a "Supreme Being could arrange that all who would respond would be "exposed" to what they needed to know", WHICH theist exposure is correct? If exposure is different... and theist beliefs are different... what is being distinguished that people "need to know"?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:41 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:23 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:11 pm What about a child, Henry? What about someone of a tight-knit and/or isolated religious community or tribe? How are they to "go lookin'"? Are they responsible for what they believe based on what they're taught/told?

I was a child in a rural town: I grew up (and aren't we talkin' about adults here, or did I miss sumthin'?)

self-responsibility comes with maturity which generally comes with growin' up

The question is focused on whether people are responsible for something that they have no clear choice about. That can apply to all ages and circumstances. People can be brainwashed into certain systems of thinking -- you should know this is true because *you constantly harp on that politically!!! So it's perfectly reasonable to consider that the same is true of theist beliefs. Therefore, we can reasonably ask any theist if their god would hold such people responsible (and reward or punish them)? People who die young. People who die never having any exposure beyond certain ideas. It is a reality. Not everyone has the same influences or opportunities in their lives. How does that impact a person's "rightness" according to theism?

as I say: self-responsibility comes with maturity which generally comes with growin' up

*and: cite an example, please

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:53 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:41 pm People can be brainwashed into certain systems of thinking -- you should know this is true because *you constantly harp on that politically!!!

*and: cite an example, please

Jokes/claims about people being completely brainwashed or spoon-fed by the media.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:56 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:53 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:41 pm People can be brainwashed into certain systems of thinking -- you should know this is true because *you constantly harp on that politically!!!

*and: cite an example, please

Jokes/claims about people being completely brainwashed or spoon-fed by the media.

my beer virus humor thread: sure, folks bein' misled and the ones doin' the misleadin', that pretty much the whole thrust of it

I don't think, however, in that thread, I've absolved the misled: quite the opposite, I think

anyone can be hoodwinked, but -- once you know you've been had -- you ought to put a stop to it or you get exactly what you deserve

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 8:18 pm anyone can be hoodwinked, but -- once you know you've been had -- you ought to put a stop to it or you get exactly what you deserve

Sure... if you ever get the awakening to realize it, and maybe some people don't or never do. Should stupid people be condemned to Hell?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 8:18 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:56 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:53 pm
*and: cite an example, please

Jokes/claims about people being completely brainwashed or spoon-fed by the media.

my beer virus humor thread: sure, folks bein' misled and the ones doin' the misleadin', that pretty much the whole thrust of it

I don't think, however, in that thread, I've absolved the misled: quite the opposite, I think

anyone can be hoodwinked, but -- once you know you've been had -- you ought to put a stop to it or you get exactly what you deserve

That thread is a litany is rubbish that you want to believe. It's almost as if you love to participate in your own oppression.